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dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 1:40 PM
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kalc you may have been there and done that... ... but how do you do when your whole fat ass trad body is horizontal to the ground for half of the route?

Yeal Kalcario, how do you get your fat trad ass up all those 5.13's?

Can you put some of it in a bottle and send it to me?

Then maybe I could get my fat trad ass up some 5.13's!

Cept it don't work that way. The goddamned bottle is TOO BIG TO SEND IN THE MAIL.

DMT


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 1:53 PM
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If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber.

That statement doesn't represent the entire trad community, at least not me.

The desire to be an all-arounder, to be competent, is as old as the hills and certainly as old as the sport. Sure not everyone wants to be there. But the sentiment is very, very well established in our sport. Many experienced climbers feel this way about themselves, though they may not voice it and perhaps may be very supportive of any given specialization.

Cheers
DMT


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 1:56 PM
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Basically, this sport climber stole a first ascent.
This is America, where being first is EVERYTHING.

Set the alarm clock next time.

DMT


yanqui


Nov 9, 2004, 5:23 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber.

That statement doesn't represent the entire trad community, at least not me.

The desire to be an all-arounder, to be competent, is as old as the hills and certainly as old as the sport. Sure not everyone wants to be there. But the sentiment is very, very well established in our sport. Many experienced climbers feel this way about themselves, though they may not voice it and perhaps may be very supportive of any given specialization.

Cheers
DMT

Climbing, minus the bull, is just that. The very natural and child-like desire to get your butt up on top of stuff. Hell, if Darwin's right we're all monkeys down deep. And even if he's wrong, there's no doubt the basic desire already starts to show up, without any force at all, in the smallest of children. Sport, trad, boulders, big walls, little walls, mountains. It doesn't matter. Get your butt up there. Up on top. That's what we all wanna do. Look around, and see that's where it's at.

Sure, it's nice to do it with some style and grace and power and control. Get up there by that 5.12b run-out trad route, or that 5.13b enduro-fest sport route or the hairy V10 highball. Or even that esthetic 5.8 dihedral, arching straight up to top, first climbed by Fred Beckey, 50 years ago.

Safe, dangerous, that's all relative. What's safe for me, might just kill your ass. And what's safe for Peter Croft, would snuff me out in a second.

But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.


sharpender


Nov 9, 2004, 5:48 PM
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Dingus wrote:
In reply to:
sharpender wrote:
Basically, this sport climber stole a first ascent.
This is America, where being first is EVERYTHING.

Set the alarm clock next time.

I rest my case. So cheating counts for you? Cause if being first is EVERYTHING integrity means nothing, testing your limits means nothing and your posting this shows that you obviously don't even know what I'm talking about in climbing. Sad.

Head on down to Suicide and climb some of the fine 10 and 11 face climbs and when you clip those bolts - many of them thirty or so feet out - think about the first ascent party putting those in by hand on the lead.


dingus


Nov 9, 2004, 5:59 PM
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I rest my case. So cheating counts for you? Cause if being first is EVERYTHING integrity means nothing, testing your limits means nothing and your posting this shows that you obviously don't even know what I'm talking about in climbing. Sad.

I don't cheat. But you don't define my rules.

I test my limits. My limits are none of your business.

And I get out of bed early, thus gaining first dibs on whatever it is I wish to do. You show up at noon and complain I stole your line, I'll play the world's smallest violin for you, something sappy like "My Heart Bleeds for YOU!"

But no, I obviously don't know what you are talking about. Some divine right to virgin rock, as best I can tell.

DMT


sarcat


Nov 9, 2004, 6:15 PM
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Some divine right to virgin rock,

Isn't this where most arguments start between the disciplines?


Partner taualum23


Nov 9, 2004, 6:26 PM
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But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.


Damn! Well, said, friend.

Why has no one else said it this well. Push the boundries, man. Not the rock's, not the sport's, but YOURS.


Partner drector


Nov 9, 2004, 6:39 PM
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I was going to post a simple statement: Climbers are arogant jerks. Then I read the post by Yanqui and realized that only some climbers are arogant jerks. I am happily surprised that some climbers have humility, compassion, understanding, and courage to accept that others can acheive cosmic bliss while taking a different path in life and in climbing.

I am a real climber. I climb. That's all you need to know.

Dave


on_sight_man


Nov 9, 2004, 6:46 PM
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But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

Three of the best paragraphs on the issue I've read.


climb_plastic


Nov 9, 2004, 6:47 PM
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This guy is an overly experienced climber, that is too chickensh*t to try anything interesting.....I am now convinced that gym climbing has torn the heart of climbing.

Totally unrelated. Most trad climbers I talk to don't climb greater than 5.10. Has nothing to do with their gym climb...In fact if they didn't go to gym they'd probably climb 5.8 outdoors.


caughtinside


Nov 9, 2004, 6:49 PM
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Absolute classic thread! :P

Kalcario trolling the sport climbers was priceless. Seconding things I hung draws on, ho ho! :lol:

However, all comedy aside he was right about 2 things.

1. Bouldering doesn't count.
2. Sometimes fun isn't fun.

*In my experience, #2 usually involves a multipitch, darkness, inclement weather, a lousy partner, a narrow escape, or any combination of these factors. You won't find it bouldering, or even single pitch sporting.

**I am a sport climber. 8^)


leinosaur


Nov 9, 2004, 7:25 PM
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But climbing is also fluidity. It is balance and engergy. I can freak out that there is a spider, but I dont kill him, 'cause he and I are climbing the same rock. Which, by the way smells the same in the sunshine next to my bolt as your cam.

Still my favorite paragraph here . . . but it has gotten interesting, no?

clamber on, y'all!


mutant


Nov 9, 2004, 7:55 PM
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Blah blah blah bla blah! (yawwwnnn)


akicebum


Nov 9, 2004, 8:06 PM
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WOW, talk about a response. Way more qualified individuals beat this topic to death years ago, I was just venting my frustration about the direction the majority of climber have taken. I do sport climb some, and boulder some. I climb on plastic cause it rains here 300 days a year. But I climb inside so that I can tackle sexy lines, not so that I can pump .13. Mountains and big stone are all about the unknown and the adventure aspect of climbing.
I wrote that last note, because I have noticed most climbers look for the biggest safety net. I'm just frustrated because it has been hard to find more partners as many of mine are getting married and a few are having kids. Its like being single again and having to go through sh*tty dating ritual. Belay slaves are fun, but a good partner is irreplaceable as I am finding out.
And for all of you die hard opinionated sport junkies, if your having fun, good. But if you pose up like some badass trad climber and go out with me and puss out in front of a 90 degree splitter crack cause you don't have a topo you had better have your helmet on cause I will go Ape.


angelaa


Nov 9, 2004, 8:55 PM
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Belay slaves are fun, but a good partner is irreplaceable

Beautiful! :D

I am actually surprised at how civil this post has been!

I primarily trad climb, and I do it for the adventure of it - All the Way!

I don't care if your climbing 5.12 - - my 5.7 is over 14,000 feet!!! :wink:


brianthew


Nov 9, 2004, 9:06 PM
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But you know what really takes courage? .....

......And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

Awesome. These are the best words I have ever read on this site. That post should submitted as an article.


chronicle


Nov 9, 2004, 11:19 PM
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In reply to:
But you know what really takes courage? .....

......And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

Awesome. These are the best words I have ever read on this site. That post should submitted as an article.

I second that. What yanqui wrote inspired me. That was the best post I've ever read.


curt


Nov 10, 2004, 5:37 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

If you can't competently function at a trad crag in a lead capacity then you are not a climber.

That statement doesn't represent the entire trad community, at least not me.

The desire to be an all-arounder, to be competent, is as old as the hills and certainly as old as the sport. Sure not everyone wants to be there. But the sentiment is very, very well established in our sport. Many experienced climbers feel this way about themselves, though they may not voice it and perhaps may be very supportive of any given specialization.

Cheers
DMT

Climbing, minus the bull, is just that. The very natural and child-like desire to get your butt up on top of stuff. Hell, if Darwin's right we're all monkeys down deep. And even if he's wrong, there's no doubt the basic desire already starts to show up, without any force at all, in the smallest of children. Sport, trad, boulders, big walls, little walls, mountains. It doesn't matter. Get your butt up there. Up on top. That's what we all wanna do. Look around, and see that's where it's at.

Sure, it's nice to do it with some style and grace and power and control. Get up there by that 5.12b run-out trad route, or that 5.13b enduro-fest sport route or the hairy V10 highball. Or even that esthetic 5.8 dihedral, arching straight up to top, first climbed by Fred Beckey, 50 years ago.

Safe, dangerous, that's all relative. What's safe for me, might just kill your ass. And what's safe for Peter Croft, would snuff me out in a second.

But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top.

Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at.

Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go.

So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.

That is really a great post, Tim--except for the part where you excuse Joe for being a dickhead.

Curt


slobmonster


Nov 10, 2004, 6:12 AM
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Its like being single again and having to go through sh*tty dating ritual.
Well, I solved the that 'problem' utilizing the internet.


areyoumydude


Nov 14, 2004, 10:35 PM
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By the way, why did all the JT locals call you "homo joe" back in the day? I never heard your side of the story.

Curt

OMFG now that makes sense. No wonder he hides behind his user name kalcario. "way homo Joe" you've been outed. Haha. Nobody liked you then......


crackrn


Dec 1, 2004, 4:10 AM
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[quote=clausti]When I climbed in the gym and touched the ceiling I had done something every time that I hadn't thought I could do. And I don't think that rips the heart out of anything. When I set my draws to lead a sport route I'm still scared every time- till I leave the ground. And then it flows.
Man, I wish I could rate posts today....I loved this paragraph. I've climbed in the gym, trad and sport and enjoy all of them for this very reason...the accomplishment of the top.


Partner f_thomas


Dec 1, 2004, 4:24 AM
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So like, man, I met this new climber. snip........................

So at least I can rest on my trad laurels, right?

NOT! Turns out he can out gun me trad as well. Been there, done that, partnered with the guide book author and was on many of the FA's.

So you know what really chaps my ass?

He's retired and 60+ years old.

Sorta blows all the tripe away, know what I mean? And I can't even complain I'm getting too old anymore! THAT is the true ass chapper. He took my excuse and red pointed it!

(actually he inspires me in so big a way I haven't found the words for it)

Cheers
DMT

We all need a challenge - not to compete, but to drive us to greater new personal heights! You are truly fortunate to have the opportunity to climb with this guy!

I'm no youngster myself - I refuse to give in or give up! My personal best is my personal best, I can't compare it to others without impacting my own effort for improvement!


glyrocks


Dec 3, 2004, 1:57 AM
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I think a bigger problem with the swarm of gym and sport climbers is the lack of appreciation for what placing your own pro means. Properly placed, trad gear is better than a bolt because you placed it and you know what it's capable of. However, I've seen a lot of guys get really strong leading bolted 12's and think that means a 5.9 or 5.10 trad lead is automatically well within their ability. Trad is different, ice is way different. You've just got to know how to place gear quickly and safely. I've seen so many people get hurt because they didn't work their way up from 6's and 7's where they could learn how to place gear, instead of just clip it.

I don't see gym climbing as destroying the heart of climbing as a whole. It would for me. I don't gym climb (I do clip bolts though) and I don't think gym climbing or bouldering is climbing. That's like owning a soccer ball that you can kick around your backyard and calling yourself a soccer player. Sure, you can kick a ball- maybe even all the way across your yard-- but you ain't a soccer player. I personally see trad and alpine as the essence of climbing, and bouldering and bolts as training, but I don't see a change of direction in popular climbing as destroying anything for me.


jakedatc


Dec 3, 2004, 5:38 PM
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gly you were doing good until you discounted types of climbing that you admittingly don't do...
Bouldering has grown FAR from the old days of it just being training. Some people gym climb to train.. others climb it because it is the best or most convenient they can find.. some people clip bolts because that is what the area calls for, or they do not have the money to invest in trad gear, or they simple *gasp* enjoy climbing and not having to worry about placing gear
what if YOU placed the bolts that you were climbing on? then would it be as good as you placing trad gear...

trying to rank styles shows a weakness in those areas that you can only justify to yourself by marking them as inferior

climb
1. To move upward on or mount, especially by using the hands and feet or the feet alone; ascend: climb a mountain; climbed the stairs.

v. intr.
1. To move oneself upward, especially by using the hands and feet.

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Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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