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dangle


Jun 4, 2005, 12:48 AM
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These system problems suck!


dangle


Jun 4, 2005, 12:53 AM
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Billy Westbay and Jimmy Dunn, Beyer came after me on both rocks

Between Grey Pillar and Shining Slab


dangle


Jun 6, 2005, 4:28 AM
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For the better part of a year Brian Smoot has been taking shots at me on both s.t.com and these forums but now is strangely silent. Instead his buddy fronts for him about what a great guy he is.

What a coward.

Brian, did you say it or not?


brianinslc


Jun 6, 2005, 7:36 PM
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In reply to:
...who turns his nametag so it can't be read

Interesting slant. Well, ok, not that interesting. If I recall correctly, I looked down and saw that my badge was not visible, and I turned it over so you could see who I was. Was kinda funny in hindsite, though. Your change in demeaner.

As far as your name calling, well, like Chris H. said when you walked into his booth and made a rude comment about me, "consider the source".

Yep.

Brian in SLC


dangle


Jun 6, 2005, 9:23 PM
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Interesting recollection. You didn't HAVE to look down and didn't.


I was the one who looked.


A change in demeanor is justified for someone who floats a smoke screen for a hate crime without exploring the other side. I hope the AAC appreciates all the help you've done for them and apparently wish to continue.


scottharms


Jun 6, 2005, 9:39 PM
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What happend to "Zion Climbing History"? There has been no history for the last number of pages of this thread. Would be nice to hear some more about the history.

Cheers


brianinslc


Jun 6, 2005, 9:48 PM
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In reply to:
Interesting recollection. You didn't HAVE to look down and didn't.
I was the one who looked.

Yes, you looked, then I did. I was surprised that you were so pleasant, given some of the, uhh, pm's we traded. So, when I saw you lookin' at my badge, I looked down, saw it turned over, and flipped it. Wasn't my intention to start out that way, but, at least I got a few minutes of nice conversation.

In reply to:
A change in demeanor is justified for someone who floats a smoke screen for a hate crime without exploring the other side.

All attempts at exploration of the other side were met with dark and murky. Thought I could make a difference, maybe help bury the hatchet, but, seems I just whizzed into the wind. Lessons to be learned, perhaps.

In reply to:
I hope the AAC appreciates all the help you've done for them and apparently wish to continue.

No. It is I who appreciate them. Its nice to try to give a little back, if possible. I like the direction they seem to be trying to go. Kinda psyched about it, actually. Sorry I missed Ouray, sounded like a good time.

Brian in SLC


dangle


Jun 6, 2005, 10:31 PM
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Tired of these system problems.


dangle


Jun 6, 2005, 10:32 PM
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What attempts occured before you posted your lame excuse???????????


dangle


Jun 7, 2005, 5:07 AM
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Still waiting on simple definitive answers from both Brians (but expect BS.)


phillipmikerevis


Jun 7, 2005, 2:54 PM
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this thread is f'ed all to h
where is the zion history????
dangle has taken it over and treated it like all of his routes
a contrived hack job
get a life you fuckin wanker

its dangles world the rest of us just live in it


atg200


Jun 7, 2005, 4:51 PM
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could a moderator please split the idiotic pissing match stuff off into a different thread? it is such a shame to lose so much good stuff in a mire of crap that no one except the folks involved care about.


flamer


Jun 7, 2005, 9:22 PM
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In reply to:
could a moderator please split the idiotic pissing match stuff off into a different thread? it is such a shame to lose so much good stuff in a mire of crap that no one except the folks involved care about.

Whatever...you over moderating, egomanical, overzealous, sportclimber hating bastard!!!

That's my way(in the spirit of this thread) of saying HEY! Andrew!!! What's up man?? We got's to climb some rocks and drink some beers!! In Zion!!(see it's related).

josh


bsmoot


Jun 8, 2005, 1:05 AM
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In reply to:
What happend to "Zion Climbing History"? There has been no history for the last number of pages of this thread. Would be nice to hear some more about the history.

O.K. since Crack in the Cosmic Egg on Mt. Moroni is a seldom done classic, I'll tell about the first ascent.



It was the night before our climb. My brother Jonathan and I were wandering around Springdale, in the dark, looking for a place to sit down and read. In 1982, the place was dead... one little hotel lobby was all we could find...at least we could sit. Our proposed new route was the East face of Mt. Moroni, a 1,000 foot high, 1/2 mile wide, jagged ridge of dark red sandstone running from the Court of the Patriarchs to Lady Mountain.

A rope hung off the first pitch from our previous attempt, which had ended when a loose block crashed down onto our rope, nearly cutting it in half. The first pitch was classic mixed climbing...inobvious aid moves interspersed with occasional mandatory free climbing. I was amped, the second pitch started with a deep, perfect splitter--about ¼" to ½" wide-- that shot up through ever steepening waves of beautiful orange and brown rock. The pitch went well and I belayed in slings. At the end of the overhanging pitch 3, Jonathan had to switch cracks. Balancing between a scary hook placement and a tied-off pin that wouldn't quite hold 100% of his weight, he painstakingly got in a bolt and made it to the belay. The haul line hung free. I then led a clean 3/4" crack until the gear was gone...Wow! What a pitch! Not quite trusting the rock, we had decided to put in a trusty old Star drive-in bolt at each hanging belay.

The sun was now setting and we knew we were close to a possible bivy ledge. It was the 5th pitch and Jonathan got stuck with another tricky section...a shallow, horizontal down-sloping crack that ended in a short blank section. After several tied-off wide pins, he had to gingerly hang off of the tip of a 2" bong in poor rock to place another hurried bolt. Well after dark, he reached a poor bivy ledge..."Off Belay!..Jumar When Ready". As I was cleaning, I heard a low grinding sound, then Thump! A rock had just careened off the back of my head. Neither of us had worn helmets. I could feel my warm blood dripping down my back and into my underwear. Dazed, I joined Jonathan on the ledge. Not feeling like eating much, I climbed into my hammock and spent a very long night on the badly sloping ledge, quite envious of Jonathan, who had a talent of being able to sleep soundly about anywhere. In the morning, I couldn't remove my hat...the dried blood just kept it stuck to my head. To this day, I still have a small bald spot on the back of my head. Being a bit rattled, we decided to go down. Since we had finished our last lead on a traverse, we had to rap straight down the steep, blank face, constantly reminding each other not to drop the bolt kit! As we drilled, we were constantly floating out into space.

For our next attempt, I couldn't seem to get Jonathan to come back. He was getting married. He decided to make something of his life...be responsible...stable and productive! For me, I was nowhere near this level of maturity. I needed someone more unstable to rope into this project. I gave Les Ellison a call: "Hey Les, Shaka…Brian!…Shaka Bra. Wanna climb a classic new route in Zion? O.K.". It was late spring and the heat was starting to become a factor. The morning of the climb we had decided to not fix any pitches. We were just going to go for it. I took the pitches my brother led (the 1st, 3rd & 5th) so I could see what they were like. On the 4th lead, Les let out a shriek of excitement as he took in the exposure…It was great to be back! We got to the bivy ledge with 2 hours of light to spare and decided to call it a day. We were now armed with 3 sets of Friends (including half sizes) and something new…PORTALEDGES! Mike Graham had the first commercially-available ledges. We were both the proud owners of them. So Les drills a hole at the end of the ledge for hanging his portaledge and pounds in an angle. It doesn't go in all the way, so he keeps pounding…and pounding…and pounding. Finally he gives up and just clips his ledge into the eye of the pin which protrudes out nearly an inch. He lies down to rest. I yell "LES! THE ROCK BELOW THE PIN IS CRUMBLING!"…. "NO!!! (his shout echoes across the whole canyon.) "Sorry Les, just joking".

In the morning, we finished up most of our water and got going. We brought 1-1/2 quarts per man per day, which was typical for back in those days. Les led up past a small tree to a beautiful diagonal 1½" crack splitting the textured upper face. The crack then abruptly widened to a shallow chimney. A few grunts to get through the offwidth section and it's "Off belay". I then lead the 7th pitch up a great hand crack through more rippled rock. A short, smooth, holdless chimney led to a belay at the base of an improbable wide chimney topped with a big roof. Like one of the "X" men, Les bridged his way up this deep, bottomless slot to where he plugs a bomber cam in up under the roof and he's off to the belay…a neat perch. The 9th pitch is yet another hand crack…this time in a perfect corner. On the last steep pitch, leading out of an alcove, Les had to pound several short/thin KB's under a roof. The second pin wouldn't go in very far. Neither of us could believe it was holding his weight. The crack blanks out a bit. Les starts drilling like a human Bosch. After clipping the bolt he gives me his laughing-at-death smile. Soon he is on top. "Shaka Bra!". There were impressive views of Mountain of the Sun and Jacob. We enjoyed a short rest…too short…better get going.

As was the norm in those days, you didn't rap back down your route. Dehydrated, we scrambled up and west to a pine tree. We rapped down to the top of some steep loose slabs, then carefully descended with our heavy packs to a brushy gully which erupted into the impressive east face of Jacob. We hiked & bushwacked north to a pass overlooking the East face of Lady Mountain. There used to be a park service trail heading up the southeast face of this big formation, complete with ladders & handrails. Back in the 50s, the trail was closed due to its danger. I managed to find the exposed, faint trail. We hiked and down climbed as fast as possible in the fading light, eventually reaching the bottom. I guzzled some murky water from a stream. Gail, Les' wife was there waiting for us. When Les arrived, he toughed it out and waited for some clean water. "What a route!" "No kidding!… That was the no jip" Now we could finally bask in the success of our climb…we had succeeded on our descent! Yes that's right, a Zion climb isn't complete without the standard tenuous descent! Next, we enjoyed a great dinner--must have drank about ½ gallon of water. The next day we had a spirited ride home: "Remember that part of the climb? Etc, etc. We arrive in Salt Lake.… Now it's time to get responsible…be a productive member of society…be practical…sensible…stable…Yeah Right!


golsen


Jun 8, 2005, 2:05 AM
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Good Job Bro! I can see Les now. He must have been psyched. Almost surprised he didnt do more down there...


golsen


Jun 8, 2005, 2:50 AM
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dangle, didnt you have a story about you and Les driving somewhere you werent suppose to? If memory serves correct it is funny as hell...


phillipmikerevis


Jun 8, 2005, 3:57 AM
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thank you mr smoot
that was way more entertaining than a short man standing on a tall box pounding his chest


dangle


Jun 9, 2005, 12:17 AM
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Yes I'm over the top on this, a bit too obsessed. But if you were the target of prejudice you might be a bit more tolerant.
Some might find it hard to believe but there are some people who would prefer to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist.

However I'm more often described as a short man standing in my top step pounding on absolutely nothing.

As for telling stories of FAs; for decades I wrote up the routes I put up, but since I pretty much concentrate on soft desert sandstone it has resulted in me being able to watch my earlier routes erode substantially. This is a troubling consequence. When I first did the original route on Cerberus Gendarme without carrying a hammer in '81 I figured that that was all it took to preserve climbs.
Silly me.
The mere placement, weighting, and removal of "clean" anchors along with "soft" rubber and rope cuts have resulted in damage that makes me wonder if sandstone lines can retain their viability.
Add to that gumby wannabes (who admittedly generally just erode the starts, but "ankle biting" is another threat to routes). Some people don't want to bother learning aid skills progressively so they jump on an "easy" wall only to discover its a bit more spooky and exposed than they expected. Their anxiety can often eclipse their inclination to preserve the line and its devil take the hindmost.
Then there's the party that gets hit with rain while high on a route and pushes on.

So what's to be done?

Jones would have us believe that routes shouldn't be "intended" to last. His impact reduction strategy is to not publish but merely to leave topos in the visitor center. There is actually some good sense to this in terms of mitigating traffic, but there is nothing in this plan that would make climbs last for a larger number of ascents it just strings them out a bit.

For more than 12 years I've refrained from writing up the routes I've put up. This is not a solution either. Already some of them have had "second" first ascents and been retrobolted.

So while its fun to reminisce what is the end game? Doesn't anybody care about the implications of this consumptive legacy? If what we do is not conducive to sustained use how do we justify such an irresponsible posture?

Its fun and we got there first???


atg200


Jun 9, 2005, 12:31 AM
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sorry to clutter the thread up some more.

In reply to:
Yes I'm over the top on this, a bit too obsessed. But if you were the target of prejudice you might be a bit more tolerant.
Some might find it hard to believe but there are some people who would prefer to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist.

the thing is, i don't know you personally and i don't know any of the people you are claiming wronged you either. most of the other folks interested in this thread don't as well. how do we pick a side? you of all people should see why judging anyone based on a bunch of words is a fool's game.

i respectfully ask that you guys settle these differences in private. i am about as interested and involved in your troubles with these folks as you probably are in my bastard ex-roommate who didn't switch over a phone bill when i moved and got a collections agency to come after me, or the time someone threw a beer bottle at me in brooklyn.

now, ranting aside. anyone have a story about the altar of sacrifice? that is a wild looking wall, but i couldn't find any info at the visitor's center outside of the miserable looking ridge enchainments up there. anything else kinda obscure like that?


dangle


Jun 9, 2005, 3:17 AM
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Mr. 200, as you may recall I started with history in this thread. Imagine your bastard ex-roomate or the bottle chucker showed up and started sniping.

As far as the Altar of Sacrifice goes Brad Quinn did a route somewhere on the east side. Some rocks are aesthetic to look at. Some are aesthetic to climb. Its a good idea not to assume that the former indicates the latter. His route bore this out.


Anybody have any thoughts on extending route viability.


One of these days I'll relate Les' big offroad adventure. Its not as amusing as Les would have one believe since he caused a bunch of damage at the test site and then split.
The sherrif could tell from the tracks that I never went in there, but he knew that when I said I didn't know Ellison's name that I was lying, so I caught some heat for not ratting him out.


golsen


Jun 9, 2005, 3:57 AM
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dangle, I never would have asked about the offroad adventure if it is going to drag anyones name through the dirt......

Route viability? The questions in your other post and this one are as you know, very difficult. You have far more experience with that in Zion's than anyone I know. I also think it is a fair and far reaching question to ask.

When I tried cerberus the first time about 22 or so yrs ago, you yelled at me when I reached for the hammer :oops: ...Now some would have taken insult with that, I learned. I was doing the wrong thing. I am relating this story because for all of your cantankerousnous, IMHO you had a good idea about route preservation when you did that route way back then and it is ok to tell other climbers when they are messing things up for the rest of us.

I have no idea how the placements are holding out, but I can imagine that route is not the same as it was in those days. I think I even used an RP or two on the first pitch. My guess is that the thinner the placement, the worse for wear and tear. The tcu and cam cracks should be fairing pretty good. Unfortunately, everything us humans touch seems to get messed up (no matter how minor) with our slightest touch...welcome to humanity. All anyone can do is their best....


atg200


Jun 9, 2005, 3:41 PM
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i just did touchstone for the first time not long ago. beautiful route, and totally enjoyable. in general, i was pretty surprised by the excellent condition of the route - it didn't look nearly as beat out as other popular towers or walls i had done. aside from one or two placements over the roof on the second pitch, everything looked like it would hold up well over time.

has the size of the crack changed over the years on touchstone? its funny how routes can change so much but still seem relatively pristine to folks seeing them for the first time. a couple of years ago i did phantom sprint on echo tower in the fishers and was amazed by the beautiful clean splitter cracks. i sprayed about it on climbingmoab.com and questioned why on the first ascent of the tower that line wasn't done instead of the huge bolt ladder in the north chimney. crusher came back with a story about the second ascent - apparently the crack was so mud choked that his partner took a huge winger on sketchy gear where i found a very easy C1 splitter crack. hard for me to imagine what it looked like then when it looked so pristine and natural to me now.


dangle


Jun 9, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Once climbs get "broken in" in the Fishers they can prove quite enjoyable even after FAs that were nightmares. Since I generally only climb my own routes I've passed on these strange formations.

The original first pitch of Touchstone (to the right of the ladder) probably would not have supported current traffic. The second pitch (which originally started with a free traverse) now starts with a crack that took knifeblades. Repeated nuttings (more the removal actually) and cammings have widened some of the spots to 5cm. Although still viable I decided to add drilled angles. What would these spots have looked like before the DAs would have been necessary anyway?
But while this tactic can protect critical wear points the "cure" could be worse than the disease.

The thin aid cracks from the top of the ladder to the midstation on the second pitch is the most vulnerable section of the route. What will they look like in a few more decades?

Because of the traffic this route could set the stage for the future of Zion climbing.
If indeed there is a future.
Perhaps granite climbers hence will look at us like the buffalo hunters of the late nineteenth century.


dangle


Jun 9, 2005, 7:41 PM
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We are now one third of the way to 100,000 views.


brianinslc


Jun 9, 2005, 8:26 PM
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In reply to:
The original first pitch of Touchstone (to the right of the ladder) probably would not have supported current traffic. The second pitch (which originally started with a free traverse) now starts with a crack that took knifeblades.

I've only done the original pitch. When did the first pitch variation get done? Seems like its more of a straight up bolt ladder, and, hence, probably a bit easier a start than the original? Sort of got a kick out of the railroad spike... Still, I wonder if the variation has helped increase traffic. Seems a more straightforward and convenient place to start.

In reply to:
Repeated nuttings (more the removal actually) and cammings have widened some of the spots to 5cm.

I wonder about your definition of "hammerless" and think that if the second was encouraged to carry a hammer, and lightly tap on a nut tool to unseat these stuck stoppers, wouldn't that be less wear and tear? As opposed to such methods as (cough cough) clipping the stopper to a harness (body cleaning?), and jugging past, thereby ripping it out of the crack.

Also, wouldn't advocating the use of nuts with more surface area contact, instead of (cough, cough) low surface area nuts such as Omega Tri Nuts, be better? Might result in less fix pieces too, perhaps (but as long as they were freebies, but, someone's going to booty them).

Did very much enjoy the Aid Climbing video. Pure joy to watch Jeff free climb. Good stuff.

In reply to:
Although still viable I decided to add drilled angles. What would these spots have looked like before the DAs would have been necessary anyway?
But while this tactic can protect critical wear points the "cure" could be worse than the disease.

Straightforward C1 versus essentially a bolt ladder. When the C1 starts wearing out and becoming C2-ish, and, less user friendly? I dunno. Will slow down the traffic a bit. Maybe that's not a bad thing. Might also cause some heavy handed-ness too. That'd be not-so-good.

In reply to:
The thin aid cracks from the top of the ladder to the midstation on the second pitch is the most vulnerable section of the route. What will they look like in a few more decades?

I wonder which is worse? Repeated cam placements, or, stoppers with as non-aggressive cleaning as possible (light hammer tap on nut tool?)? I can imagine heavily bounce tested cams, with any shifting, are going to wear down the sandstone probably quicker than a slotted nut placement. Unless the nuts get welded in and require some beating to remove.

In reply to:
Because of the traffic this route could set the stage for the future of Zion climbing.
If indeed there is a future.
Perhaps granite climbers hence will look at us like the buffalo hunters of the late nineteenth century.

Then a mud slide closes the road. Or, a huge hunk of cliff spalls off. Or, they break new ground for another campground, visitor center.

I think there's a long future for climbing in Zion. The damage from use (overuse, abuse) is probably hard to quantify taking a whole route into consideration. And, much slower than repeated iron use. Deep cracks probably don't suffer near as much as shallow pods from stopper and cam placements.

Hmmm. Does sorta make me wonder. Even free climbing, with many repeats over the same terrain on soft rock, will show some widening of cracks (ala Incredible Hand Crack gettin' a bit bigger over the years, for instance).

I think especially popular sports climbs on steep limestone change character much quicker than the sandstone in Zion. Polish. Anything done to mitigate crack wear might seem pretty artificial, and hence, a bit unpalatable (ie, adding fixed pro to high wear spots and/or an industrial coating to preclude wear).

Maybe a case of taking the (not so) bad with the (most excellent) good? Good fodder for thought, though.

Brian in SLC

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