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glyrocks
Jan 27, 2005, 1:21 PM
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In case anyone is interested...
Took about a 10 foot fall onto a 13cm screw that hit rock around 10cm. It was clipped to a new Sterling 9.5 with a Yates Screamer Zipper. About 1/3 of the screamer tore before I stopped. The belayer was standing on the ground and anchored to a single screw with about 6 feet of rope giving me a decent dynamic belay.
The fall was actually really fun. I kind of expected it to happen 'cause the ice was pretty brittle (and thin compared to what everyone outside NC is used to climbing) and most of the distance I fell was from the dynamic stuff (rope stretch, belay, screamer). I just sort floated down- not that I recommend falling on ice screws. But hey, at least I know shorties and screamers will hold. And no one got hurt, and the route went a couple days later.
Not sure how to post pictures in a thread but there are some pictures of the screamer, the route, and the fall in progress in my pictures.
ps. I plan on still using the screamer. 2/3 of it is still sewn. I figure it will still rip at >2kN but will have a decreased load reduction capability. Anyone have a reason not to use it?
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adamwvt
Jan 27, 2005, 1:26 PM
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In reply to: The fall was actually really fun
You lucky son of a bitch.
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kman
Jan 27, 2005, 2:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The fall was actually really fun You lucky son of a b----.
Yup.
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scottharms
Jan 27, 2005, 5:18 PM
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you walked away without any carnage. nice. falling on ice is my worst night mare. I bet that fall gave you some confidence in the pro......
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: I bet that fall gave you some confidence in the pro......
Even though it really shouldn't.
Lucky Charms for breakfast?
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whatsupdoc
Jan 27, 2005, 5:51 PM
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I personally wouldn't use the screamer again. It did its job so pony up and get a new one. Hang it on the wall as a momento of your fall.
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soccer_fan
Jan 27, 2005, 6:05 PM
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For someone wiht basically nill experience, is there anyway to avoid the fall pictured here? I mean if you end up on some very brittle ice do you back off? I know, technically you hope to "never fall on ice," but how does that actually work? I ask, b/c to me the ice pictured looks decent...
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glyrocks
Jan 27, 2005, 6:22 PM
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Hah, maybe I was lucky. I didn't know if the screw would hold, but I hoped it would b/w the dynamic belay, screamer, and new rope. I certainly don't plan on making testing screamers a habit.
Hey, thanks for posting the pictures.
As far as avoiding that, I could have bailed. You can see a ledge in the picture that you can easily reach but I suppose the other way would have been to not swing as hard. With sharp picks you could probably get a decent placement without trying to get the whole damn pick in. I suppose that's what made the ice blow; I tried to get a deeper placement that I should have. But hey, it's hard to take a shallow placement when you feel pumped.
I plan on getting some new screamers, but figure I might as well use the semi-blown one anyway for better-than-marginal screws.
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: I know, technically you hope to "never fall on ice," but how does that actually work?
It comes with experience. You learn to read ice. You learn to test your placements. You learn to recognize a good placement by the sound of it, by the look of the ice. You learn body positioning when moving on sketch. You learn, you learn, you learn.
glyrocks is new to the game. And you see alot more of this these days. It is alot like sketchy trad. You take your time, progressing your skills, leading below your abilities. That's what TR is for, pushing your limits. The more people that seem to get involved with the sport, the more you see people over their heads.
glyrocks sees bragging rights. I see someone waiting to get hurt.
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: ... 'cause the ice was pretty brittle (and thin compared to what everyone outside NC is used to climbing)
:lol: :roll:
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sandbag
Jan 27, 2005, 6:38 PM
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Personally, if i was Yates, and i saw/read that you intended to reuse a blown piece of impact force reduction equipment like a screamer, i'd sue you for lack of common sense.
You lucked out, and thankfully from the pics looks to have been a minor fall in distance, but the variable are so much more endangering with the tools, the crampons and the nature of the ice itself.
Just slow down chief and learn the ropes, its not a race, its a journey, enjoy it for as long as you can.
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sandbag
Jan 27, 2005, 6:40 PM
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Personally, if i was Yates, and i saw/read that you intended to reuse a blown piece of impact force reduction equipment like a screamer, i'd sue you for lack of common sense.
You lucked out, and thankfully from the pics looks to have been a minor fall in distance, but the variable are so much more endangering with the tools, the crampons and the nature of the ice itself.
Just slow down chief and learn the ropes, its not a race, its a journey, enjoy it for as long as you can.
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couchwarrior
Jan 27, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: glyrocks sees bragging rights. I see someone waiting to get hurt.
Actually, I see a simple low factor fall where the system worked exactly as it was designed to work. End of story. Not sure why we need to make it a referendum on the behavior of a particular climber.
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adamd
Jan 27, 2005, 7:09 PM
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I'd like to think that glyrocks is a troll but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. Let's recap a series of poor decisions.
1) took a lead fall on ice
2) fell on a poorly placed screw
3) plans to reuse a half ripped screamer
Has any LEARNING actually happened?
I'd say hang the ripped screamer up somewhere as a reminder to start making better decisions. A new ice climber taking a lead fall and calling it "fun" seems pretty reckless to me.
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slobmonster
Jan 27, 2005, 7:21 PM
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Sure, use the 1/3rd blown Screamer. Still better than a plain old sling. As for everyone on here giving you a fairly hard time, well, you did ask for their advice...
I'm happy you didn't get hurt in your fall, please try not to repeat, and understand that the traditional ice climbing learning curve would still have you flat-footing grade 2 ice before you EVER had an opportunity to whip off something. From your photos it looks like you could use some mileage to refine your body position when pulling over little bulges; I would suggest taking laps and laps and laps, and pumping yourself silly.
Cheers!
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: Not sure why we need to make it a referendum on the behavior of a particular climber.
So that noobs reading this don't get the wrong idea, hopefully.
So that maybe the orginal poster will learn something.
Despite what you may think, it's not mean spirited. I've been around two different situations when climbers have died. I've been around more when others have gotten injured. It's not fun for anyone.
These forums only have value if people learn. I'm glad to not see responses like "bitchin fall dude, way to go!" He openned himself up with the original post, and is appropriately getting a lecture.
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glyrocks
Jan 27, 2005, 8:06 PM
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Hah you guys are ridiculous. Especially all the internet lingo. Sometimes reading these forums is like reading a 14 year old's email.
I've been ice climbing for three years. No, not a long time, but not brand new either. I do know I need to learn better technique, and I do laps. But leading that ice wasn't reckless. It was fun, I hope if I fall again it's still fun. It wouldn't have been fun if someone had gotten hurt; I realize that. Some of you are a little caught up in the badass image.
In reply to: You take your time, progressing your skills, leading below your abilities. That's what TR is for, pushing your limits.
Sure, but I think pushing yourself on lead is okay too.
In reply to: Personally, if i was Yates, and i saw/read that you intended to reuse a blown piece of impact force reduction equipment like a screamer, i'd sue you for lack of common sense
Yea, they should sue me for lack of common sense. Good one. I better warn my legal team.
In reply to: Let's recap a series of poor decisions. 1) took a lead fall on ice 2) fell on a poorly placed screw 3) plans to reuse a half ripped screamer Has any LEARNING actually happened?
I didn't decide to fall. I didn't get to the top and say "hey, looks like a good time to jump off." So, no, falling itself wasn't a bad decision. I also didn't decide to fall on a poorly place screw. I could have placed a better one perhaps, but clearly it wasn't too poor because IT HELD. And where did you explain why I shouldn't reuse a 1/3 blown screamer? I didn't notice any explanation in all that smoke you blew. So why is it a bad decision? Would it be a better decision to use a regular runner? No, a semi-blown screamer is better than none at all, but not as good as a new one, which I already said I was going to get.
And yes, I have learned something. Ice screws and screamers do work. I haven't made the assumption that they will always work and I would never get hurt falling. I didn't say "good thing ice screws and screamer always work; now I can run out WI6 tomorrow."
Yea I did ask for advice on the screamer. Anyone freaking out about using it again have a reason not to?
What is the wrong idea? That the systems we meticulously set up to hold our falls work?
Hah "appropriately getting a lecture." I'm okay with you thinking I was wrong in leading ice. You weren't there, you only have a picture a brief description. You probably think anyone who hasn't been climbing for 20 years doesn't have enough experience to do anything but read books on climbing. You, my friend are a duder.
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 8:39 PM
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In reply to: You weren't there, you only have a picture a brief description.
Nope, your flippant attitude towards the fall in your original post told most of the story. Add to that some stuff in your profile.
In reply to: You probably think anyone who hasn't been climbing for 20 years doesn't have enough experience to do anything but read books on climbing.
Not at all, but someone who doesn't know enough about good/ bad placements, and whats appropriate for the ice conditions, probably shouldn't be leading at their limits.
In reply to: You, my friend are a duder.
Who sounds like a 14 year old???
Hey it's a free world, as long as you are having fun, go for it.
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 8:39 PM
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duplicate post
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oldfart
Jan 27, 2005, 9:14 PM
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How about these lessons?
1) If you don't want to get second-guessed by every dumbass who's ever seen a half hour of ice climbing on the discovery channel, don't post pictures of yourself fucking up on the internet.
2) 20 years ago your lead would have been considered bold. In the LL Bean era, all it gets you is a lecture by "concerned climbers". Here's the thing. Know your audience. Nobody here really gives a shit about your safety or that of others, but by calling you an idiot they get to look authoritative in public. Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures.
3) There is thin ice outside of North Carolina. Some people even climb it.
Looked like a fun climb. Good job not sticking an ice axe through your spleen. If you don't want your ripped screamer, mail it to me.
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couchwarrior
Jan 27, 2005, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: How about these lessons? 1) If you don't want to get second-guessed by every dumbass who's ever seen a half hour of ice climbing on the discovery channel, don't post pictures of yourself f---ing up on the internet. 2) 20 years ago your lead would have been considered bold. In the LL Bean era, all it gets you is a lecture by "concerned climbers". Here's the thing. Know your audience. Nobody here really gives a s--- about your safety or that of others, but by calling you an idiot they get to look authoritative in public. Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures. 3) There is thin ice outside of North Carolina. Some people even climb it. Looked like a fun climb. Good job not sticking an ice axe through your spleen. If you don't want your ripped screamer, mail it to me.
I wish I had said all that! Brilliant and should end this thread forthwith. Good night and drive safely, everyone!
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d.ben
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Jan 27, 2005, 9:56 PM
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A person asks for advice.
People respond to his advice,
said person gets defensive, this displays his bruised ego.
ego + climbing = eventual injury or death, family members crying / you not getting to enjoy life anymore.
If your son or little brother or girlfriend etc. were in the situation you put yourself in and it would make you afraid than it was probably not so smart.
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glyrocks
Jan 27, 2005, 10:03 PM
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Hah, duder. Don't take it too seriously. It's called mockery.
oldfart:
Heh, yea I guess you're right. I don't think I really fucked up, but I should have known people would have freak out.
And yea, the thing about thin ice was more of a crack at NC ice than anything else. Didn't mean that how it came across.
Nah, the advice I asked for was about the Screamer, which only one or two people addressed, one of which was a stupid-ass response. I didn't ask for advice on whether I should have been there in the first place. My ego is doing okay, I've got plenty of better things keeping it beat down other than some self-proclaimed internet climbing gurus.
Anyway, enough arguing with internet personalities.
shalom.
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akclimber
Jan 27, 2005, 10:13 PM
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good storie and pics, dont listen to the lame, i dont read the site to read people bitchin, jus want to hear about what others have done, keep up the good work! :D
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: 2) 20 years ago your lead would have been considered bold. In the LL Bean era, all it gets you is a lecture by "concerned climbers". Here's the thing. Know your audience. Nobody here really gives a s--- about your safety or that of others, but by calling you an idiot they get to look authoritative in public. Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures.
I think you missed the mark on this one.
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oldfart
Jan 27, 2005, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 2) 20 years ago your lead would have been considered bold. In the LL Bean era, all it gets you is a lecture by "concerned climbers". Here's the thing. Know your audience. Nobody here really gives a s--- about your safety or that of others, but by calling you an idiot they get to look authoritative in public. Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures. I think you missed the mark on this one.
Fortunately, like most others on this site I couldn't give less of a shit whether I'm right or not, and I care even less what you think about it. I'm just trying to fit in.
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d.ben
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Jan 27, 2005, 10:20 PM
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more defensiveness, further displaying your bruised little ego.
seems like you wanted to hear "F*ck yeah dude, you're so bad ass!"
I truly don't care if lead beyond your ability and deck with a tool up your ass, I just had to call you out for getting pissed when you didn't hear what you wanted form "internet (insert I'm better than you tone here) personalities" after you asked them.
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tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: Fortunately, like most others on this site I couldn't give less of a s--- whether I'm right or not, and I care even less what you think about it. I'm just trying to fit in.
Then why on earth do you bother?
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oldfart
Jan 27, 2005, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Fortunately, like most others on this site I couldn't give less of a s--- whether I'm right or not, and I care even less what you think about it. I'm just trying to fit in. Then why on earth do you bother?
I could ask the same of damn near everyone on this site. Another fine piece of advice by d.ben up there.
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sandbag
Jan 27, 2005, 10:48 PM
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Ok Glyrocks, heres the concern:
You fell big whoopy doo
the screamer partially deployed, now the real issue.
Is it still safe? Not really, in my opinion.
Heres why
Its a Bar tacked Stiched runner. Its designed to lessen impact in a fall. not falls, not repeated bouncing, etc. A FALL
The thread that was holding the loops is torn, and also the webbing too, hello, its stictched together with guess what sewing needles that yes, pierce and cut their way through the webbing.
ANyway, theres the reason i wouldnt risk my ass on a 6 dollar piece of equipment and you dint fall 10 feet, it looks to be more like maybe 8 if youre lucky. You should be glad you didnt hook a pon and from the pics you sure as hell were lucky you didnt take a point from the left tool in the torso.....
:x
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adamwvt
Jan 27, 2005, 10:51 PM
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Wow, I just got back from ice climin, what have you guys been doing all day?
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adamwvt
Jan 27, 2005, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: a 6 dollar piece of equipment |
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abalch
Jan 27, 2005, 11:00 PM
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Congratulations on your first fall on ice not being the last fall before the grave. 8^)
I would second, third, whatever everyone else that is suggesting not reusing the screamer. I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember when I bought some screamers last year, that the instructions actually said not to reuse the screamer, even if it doesn't deploy at all during the fall. I guess the reasoning could be similar to air bags in a car. If you get in an accident over a certain speed, recorded by the onboard computer, the insurance company will actually require your air bag to be replaced, even if it did not deploy. Their reason is, since it did not deploy, it may have been defective. Obviously with an air bag, if it does deploy, their is absolutely no way to reuse it--you whole front of your steering wheel is torn apart.
The screamer did its job--treat it like you would treat your horse when it got to old, put it out to pasture, or shoot it and sell it for glue. :lol:
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sandbag
Jan 27, 2005, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: a 6 dollar piece of equipment 6$ screamers, where?
ok ok
its 8 and change
HERE
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petmac
Jan 27, 2005, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: (and thin compared to what everyone outside NC is used to climbing)
I am not going to question your decision(s) guy; I don’t think its right, for anyone, to say ‘well I would have…if I were…what made you think that!...ect.’ However I live in western NC and also climb ice, and was wondering where in NC where you were when this happened? I don’t think I place it…
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slabmaster
Jan 27, 2005, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures.
Remember:
Climbing is all about fashion and gear.
Ice (and mountain) climbing is all about fashion and suffering.
nuf said
~db
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adamwvt
Jan 27, 2005, 11:31 PM
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ok ok
its 8 and change
HERE
You magnificant bastard, thats great.
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gunked
Jan 30, 2005, 7:00 PM
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I haven't laughed tha hard all day! Oldfart, you slay me! :lol:
-jason :D
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fishbelly
Jan 30, 2005, 7:58 PM
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If your scew held. then it was a good placement.
When I started ice climbing snargs were the big advancement in ice pro.
I have barn doored ,hung by one or both tools,balanced on a front point skeered myself bald, But have never taken leader fall on ice.
So I may never have placed a good screw.
Tools or feet you have to make it good on the first try.
when you toprope hook old placements, climb with one tool climb with no tools. your foot work improves. which gives you a foundation for better tool placements.
Matching clothes slings ropes make better pictures!
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adamwvt
Jan 31, 2005, 2:27 AM
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In reply to: If your scew held. then it was a good placement. When I started ice climbing snargs were the big advancement in ice pro. I have barn doored ,hung by one or both tools,balanced on a front point skeered myself bald, But have never taken leader fall on ice. So I may never have placed a good screw.
Well said fishbelly.
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lame_name
Jan 31, 2005, 2:32 AM
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so you started the climb expecting to fall? that is pretty bizaar for an ice climber and i'd say silly for a beginner, maaaybe ballsy for a seasoned vet with adequate knowledge.
someone was just there with a camera at the right time? it almost looks staged!
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cjstudent
Jan 31, 2005, 4:45 AM
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Here is my whole opinion on the thing.
There are alot of ass-holes on this website.
the main question that Dylan wanted to know was about the screamer. I think the general answer he got was, don't use it. So now he has your advice and its up to him on what to do.
I don't see why everyone jumped on the against Dylan bandwagon. I actually know dylan...he's not the kind of guy who is going to get off by getting online and getting alot of responses like "hell yea do it again!". Forgive him for posting a thread and posting pictures of a fall on a climbing site. I think people on here need to think alittle more before they start calling someone a newbie etc etc. I got the same BS responses when i posted a pic of my trad fall.
I mean how is what he posted any different than the whole thread that is about the smallest piece of gear thats held. To me it looked like he just posted about a climbing experience he had where the gear actually held. It would be teh same thing if the story went along the lines of "man i was on this hard climb, only got this mank .2 camalot placed and continued up pushing my ability and i'd be damn but a hold broke off, i took a 10 footer and the mank cam held!"
I just think everyone needs to let off just alittle bit. Especially the bone head who posted saying the picture was staged. Nice first post buddy!
Oh and i had my first day of ice climbing today. I even went with Dylan and am alive to tell about it.
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harrisha
Jan 31, 2005, 5:03 AM
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Just checked Yates' site a normal Screamer when full blown is rated at 26kn. Thats stronger than a lot of biners. Based on that I'd say use it until you rip out all the stiching. I'd retire it after that even though it's supposed to still be a full strength runner.
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glyrocks
Jan 31, 2005, 5:17 AM
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You mean bizzare? But no, I didn't start expecting to fall. I starting up thinking it was a possibility and once plates of ice popped off I expected it to happen. Maybe to y'all pushing on when I could have bailed is silly, but that's got to do with my reasons for climbing. Maybe it will get me killed one day, but I'm okay with that. I didn't express the least bit of concern whether you were okay with that, and I certainly don't give a fuck if you aren't.
The purpose of the thread was clearly to state that screws and screamers can hold falls, not that it is a good idea to fall or that I'm a badass. The only input I asked for was concerning the screamer, which did generate a few useful responses, but mostly only people complaining about my ego. Hrm.
Sandbag: So first I was reckless to fall and then it's only "whoopy doo" ? Which one is it? Sure sounded like a big deal in your first bit of rhetoric. But moving on to what I was interested in...
In reply to: The thread that was holding the loops is torn, and also the webbing too, hello, its stictched together with guess what sewing needles that yes, pierce and cut their way through the webbing.
So you must only use tied runners then right? 'Cause lots of runners are bar tacked with, guess what, sewing needles.
I still think the Screamer is better than a regular runner. Yates states that once blown, Screamers are still full strength runners. They'd have to be safe blown to be safe to use before they tear. If a partially torn screamer was as weak as some of y'all think, a fall that generated enough force to completely tear the screamer seemingly break the the torn Screamer completely as well. So yea, I think it would be fine to use it until it's fully blown, and then retire it.
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kachoong
Jan 31, 2005, 6:54 AM
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In reply to: I still think the Screamer is better than a regular runner. Yates states that once blown, Screamers are still full strength runners. They'd have to be safe blown to be safe to use before they tear. If a partially torn screamer was as weak as some of y'all think, a fall that generated enough force to completely tear the screamer seemingly break the the torn Screamer completely as well. So yea, I think it would be fine to use it until it's fully blown, and then retire it.
....forget what some of these idiots are ranting about and vommiting from their brains.... the point to this whole thread is to show what can happen, who it has happened to, under what conditions and the lessons learned.... without people finding out what happens to certain pieces of gear under different conditions, we wouldn't be able to use this information to our own benefit....
....the climber fell (yeah ok, conditions and experience dictated 'why') but that isn't the topic here.... the screw obviously held.... the screamer tore, but not completely.... I would use the screamer again in place of a runner.... but most definately NOT in the same situation as used here.... the forces exerted on the screw could, and most probably would, be greater than if the screamer was not 'deployed'.... so it may not absorb sufficient force to allow the screw to hold in such ice....
....I think the more information available to beginners, without the bickering, endless negativity and arrogance, the easier it is to make informed decisions based on what others experience.... how many of the people here who flamed the original poster have fallen on a screamer?!?.... Leave the guy alone!
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adnix
Jan 31, 2005, 11:14 AM
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I don't see any problem with using the screamer. Just apply some tape around it and it's perfect again. The worst case scenario is that it'll hold the promised strength of +20kN.
It might not be a good idea to use it if you're facing runout situation, though.
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jimdavis
Jan 31, 2005, 10:44 PM
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The fact that your using Screamers in general means that you don't completly trust Ice Screws.
So if that's how you feel...wouldn't you want full confidence in the Screamer, to give that screw (you don't completly trust) all the help you can?
Also, I don't think it'll re-activate at 2kn. I think the first few stitches are designed to hold up to 2kn, and the rest just rip out until the fall is stopped.
I could be wrong here, but can you get it to rip out more by pulling on both ends? Or does it actually take 2kn to get it to keep going?
Cheers,
Jim
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sandbag
Jan 31, 2005, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: You mean bizzare? But no, I didn't start expecting to fall. I starting up thinking it was a possibility and once plates of ice popped off I expected it to happen. Maybe to y'all pushing on when I could have bailed is silly, but that's got to do with my reasons for climbing. Maybe it will get me killed one day, but I'm okay with that. I didn't express the least bit of concern whether you were okay with that, and I certainly don't give a f--- if you aren't. The purpose of the thread was clearly to state that screws and screamers can hold falls, not that it is a good idea to fall or that I'm a badass. The only input I asked for was concerning the screamer, which did generate a few useful responses, but mostly only people complaining about my ego. Hrm. Sandbag: So first I was reckless to fall and then it's only "whoopy doo" ? Which one is it? Sure sounded like a big deal in your first bit of rhetoric. But moving on to what I was interested in... In reply to: The thread that was holding the loops is torn, and also the webbing too, hello, its stictched together with guess what sewing needles that yes, pierce and cut their way through the webbing. So you must only use tied runners then right? 'Cause lots of runners are bar tacked with, guess what, sewing needles. I still think the Screamer is better than a regular runner. Yates states that once blown, Screamers are still full strength runners. They'd have to be safe blown to be safe to use before they tear. If a partially torn screamer was as weak as some of y'all think, a fall that generated enough force to completely tear the screamer seemingly break the the torn Screamer completely as well. So yea, I think it would be fine to use it until it's fully blown, and then retire it.
No dumbass. The sewn runners are sewn in one spot an tested to 22Kn. the screamers are a load reducing unit, sewn in series, designed to deploy under duress, ie they begin to lessen the acceleration due to gravity by interupting your fall. go ahead. i dont really care. but ive said my piece.
Have fun. Dont end up on the news, and just keep climbing.
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tradklime
Jan 31, 2005, 11:25 PM
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For those who think the entire purpose of the original post is to ask if the screamer should be reused... I call bullsh!t. Otherwise, the post would have been as simple as, "I fell on a sreamer the other day and it partially deployed, should I keep using it?"
Well, I'll tell you the answer anyways: It will not have the same load limiting capabilities as a new screamer, use it with appropriate judgement. Yates says not to. Your ass, your decision.
The following was presented as something learned from the fall, and it is dead wrong.
In reply to: But hey, at least I know shorties and screamers will hold.
No, a shorty and a screamer and a new rope and a dynamic belay, yada yada yada, held a fall in this one particular instance. And the original poster was lucky, although smart enough to at least recognize these factors in retrospect.
However, that's it, nothing more nothing less. It should not be misconstrued that ice pro is better than it is. You hung it out there and it worked out for you, in this particular situation. Take it for what its worth.
Boldness is pushing your limits and safety when you fully understand your limits, the limits of what you are climbing/ conditions, the limits of your gear, and the consequences. I fully respect boldness.
Do not mistake ignorance for boldness, it is not the same.
And for all those who may think that I am arrogant, or holier than thou, or whatever, that is not how it is intended. I have made similar MISTAKES in my climbing career, and I have gotten lucky. I have also been not so lucky, and have witnessed many others not being so lucky. The difference is that I have recognized mistakes for what they are and learned from them. And that is where the real value can be in a forum, so that hopefully the amount of unlucky mistakes made by people who are learning can be reduced.
And for what it's worth, I'd use the screamer again, but I'd be very selective on when to use it.
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michael crowder
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Jan 31, 2005, 11:40 PM
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check my website for a little info on screamers from my perspective along with some links to other information:
http://www.coolclimbing.com/icetips01.htm
i personally would retire the screamer but i have a couple of dozen lying around so i will never run short. i use a screamer on every single piece of ice protection placed. i have been ice climbing for 25 plus years and took my first lead fall about three years ago. i ripped out every piece of pro i had placed on the way to the ground but only after ripping all the tacks on the screamers that i had them clipped with.
the fall went like this.... fall, rope tightens, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, fall, rope tightens, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, fall, rope tighten, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, hit ground. i landed on my ice axe which poked a hole in my goretex coat, fleece jacket, underwear, and just barely scratched the surface of my skin between two of my ribs. had i hit the ground any harder i would have had a punctured lung. did the screamers help? they probably saved my life. witnesses said that everytime i loaded a piece of gear it would slow me almost to a stop before it blew. when the last piece caught me i was only about 6 feet off the ground and i almost came to a complete stop before it ripped. therefore it was only the equivelent of a short bouldering fall when i impacted the ground.
the reason for the fall was 25 years of experience and overconfidence. i assumed i could climb anything and get away with it because i had never fallen in 20 plus years of ice climbing. don't flame someone because they have only been ice climbing for three years when they fell. amount of experience is not an important factor in this case. in my deal i didn't fall because i could not hold on. the ice desentegrated on me because i was trying to get one more climb in on a day when the temps were in the high 40's, it was actively raining and the ice was thin to begin with. i knew it was risky but thought the risk was worth the reward. in the same situation i would probably do the same thing over again. in fact i have and continue to get away with it. might pay for it next time but thems the risks. i would say continue to use the screamer until you can replace it and do that as soon as possible. private message me and tell me where this place is so i can go chop on it a little.
michael
http://www.coolclimbing.com
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sandbag
Feb 1, 2005, 12:17 AM
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Thanks Michael for the info and cool site!@
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threadkilla
Feb 1, 2005, 1:55 AM
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There are some real gems in this thread (tounge in cheek). I took a leader fall on ice once. I was traversing and was about 8 ft. above and 8 ft. out from a screw. I made the obvious mistake of planting a tool too close to the other one. The whole section dinnerplated and I fell. Luckily I pendulumed across a slightly lower angled section, didn't hook anything and wasn't hurt at all. I got off easy. I learned that sometimes it's easier to take things head on, rather than to avoid the difficlties.
Nice work Glyrocks. Thanks for posting the photos, I've never seen a blown screamer and it's nice to know that sometimes things work the way they're supposed to.
And michael crowder, great post and great advice here and in the peru thread. Also nice website, thanks for the link. Only 40 posts?
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glyrocks
Feb 1, 2005, 3:08 AM
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I think it still takes a 2kN force to re-activate and/or continue to rip it, but not certain. I've asked Yates and haven't gotten a reply. Crowder may know the answer to that... And yea, I would want total confidence- or at least as close to it as I can get-- which I why I plan on replacing it, but also to use a semi-blown screamer instead of a static runner.
In reply to: "The sewn runners are sewn in one spot an tested to 22Kn. the screamers are a load reducing unit, sewn in series, designed to deploy under duress, ie they begin to lessen the acceleration due to gravity by interupting your fall.
I know how they work; the question is how safe they are to use after they've started to work. Yates says they are still full-strength runners once blown. The fact that Screamers decrease the acceleration of the fall is irrelevent to how strong they are after they have ripped. I don't think the thread that rips is sewn in a matter that compromises the strength of the 'normal' runner. It may , but regardless, Yates still rates blown screamers at full strength. Hm, so I guess that answers my question. Do you have a relevent argument against that? You haven't presented a single consistent, relevent point- other than to call me a dumbass or course. So, please, if you have one I'd like to hear it.
In reply to: For those who think the entire purpose of the original post is to ask if the screamer should be reused... I call bullsh!t. Otherwise, the post would have been as simple as, "I fell on a sreamer the other day and it partially deployed, should I keep using it?"
Nope, I didn't say that was entire purpose. I said this:
In reply to: The purpose of the thread was clearly to state that screws and screamers can hold falls, not that it is a good idea to fall or that I'm a badass. The only input I asked for was concerning the screamer...
In reply to: No, a shorty and a screamer and a new rope and a dynamic belay, yada yada yada, held a fall in this one particular instance.
That would be part of the reason I explained the circumstances. I don't want a "noob" getting the wrong idea.
I know, there is a difference in boldness and ignorance. I also know you can't tell the difference in what was bold or ignorant for me to do across the world wide web.
Michael- Yea I used to check your page for condition reports while sitting through stats. Read through most of it, which explains the B in stats. I haven't looked through your guidebook too much yet though. I thumbed through the WV stuff one weekend while I was in Fayettville looking for ice, but it was way to warm to climb any.
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michael crowder
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Feb 1, 2005, 2:53 PM
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threadkilla,
yea just 40 posts. i have another bbs i post to regularly and i have to get some work done occasionally. i usually just wander over here when i have ulterior motives or just want to slum a little. ;-)
glyrocks,
i have talked to john several times about his products. they activate at 500 to 550 lbs. that is the range that his testing has shown to do the most effective job. while i am not 100% sure of this i believe that the activation range across the entire working area of the screamer remains at 500 to 550 lbs. the sewing method is consistent across the entire sling. the reason some screamers do not blow all the way is that at some point the force of the fall comes below that range. i believe that a partially blown screamer will reactivate at the same force you just wont have as much room for the sreamer to run. my advise is still to keep using it until you can replace it. as soon as possible replace all of your draws with screamers for ice climbing purposes. one of the reasons for the 500+ lb. activation force is that it allows you to load your piece with body weight and not blow tacks. some of the early models had the same main working weight but had additiional starter tacks that blew between 200 and 250 lbs. these tacks held the wings in place in addition to the lycra sheath. the problem was that these lower force tacks would blow under body weight and kinda freak you out.
i hae never been a big fan of the ice scream cause i seem to have to use my teeth to get it open enough to go around a screw. for girth hitching screws and for slinging all of my spectres i use scream aids. i like the scream aids a lot. john makes a special screamer for me that i call the southern scream. it is a standard shorty screamer with a big loop sewn on one end for girth hitching stuff. john is real good about custom making stuff. he has made me twelve foot aiders out of the super stiff scuba webbing and other strange things. you come up with an idea and he will make it for you.
michael
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lame_name
Feb 3, 2005, 12:53 AM
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In reply to: There are alot of ass-holes on this website..... I just think everyone needs to let off just alittle bit. Especially the bone head who posted saying the picture was staged. Nice first post buddy!
This is a bit of a hypocritical rant there, post counter. My time is spent in places of more significance to me than here.
Look a little closer and you will see that i merely poked lightly at the staging possibility; the first pic is from above, the second below - were there 2 photographers to catch this gnar gnar?
(*@!Attention - I'm only wondering, not accusing&%$) I personally would probably forget about the viewfinder if my partner was falling so I could best assess mechanism of injury if one were to occur, but having the shot certainly is nice for the album.
I don't think climbing ice expecting to fall is anything I will engage in. Prepared to, but not expecting to. I've been on too many rescues, carried too many dead people out, had too many friends die in the mountains (including ice climbing), and seen enough carnage in my years of being an EMT to feel like the attitude presented is something I would not condone.
To each his own, though. Piss on that if you dare, mr. nomoreassholes.
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oldfart
Feb 3, 2005, 3:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: There are alot of ass-holes on this website..... I just think everyone needs to let off just alittle bit. Especially the bone head who posted saying the picture was staged. Nice first post buddy! This is a bit of a hypocritical rant there, post counter. My time is spent in places of more significance to me than here. Look a little closer and you will see that i merely poked lightly at the staging possibility; the first pic is from above, the second below - were there 2 photographers to catch this gnar gnar? (*@!Attention - I'm only wondering, not accusing&%$) I personally would probably forget about the viewfinder if my partner was falling so I could best assess mechanism of injury if one were to occur, but having the shot certainly is nice for the album. I don't think climbing ice expecting to fall is anything I will engage in. Prepared to, but not expecting to. I've been on too many rescues, carried too many dead people out, had too many friends die in the mountains (including ice climbing), and seen enough carnage in my years of being an EMT to feel like the attitude presented is something I would not condone. To each his own, though. Piss on that if you dare, mr. nomoreassholes.
I'm pretty sure no one is asking you to engage in anything.
Pretty sure no one asked you to condone anything either.
With that in mind, were the dead guys and carnage brought up to demonstrate a point, or how experienced and cool you are?
If it was to demonstrate a point, see above.
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rendog
Feb 3, 2005, 3:58 AM
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glyrocks
this is just me and my ass*ole (opinion)
I wouldn't use it again unless it was to hold up a picture. these guys can argue, throw numbers and smack around till the cows come home for all I care, It comes down to this in my mind:
a screamer is designed to work when it is whole. full stitching, and all that. If I were to blow out the top 1/3rd of one of my screamers, it would be retired and that would be the end of it. It would get hung up on the wall along with my cracked helmet from rockfall, my #6 nut with the cable frayed from holding a hugeass fall over an edge (a stoopid placement don't get me started any of you), and any of the other gear that has saved my life over the years.
I know it sux retiring gear when they're not completely gone, but IMHO it's better to be safe than sorry. Plus when you think about it...they';re not all that expensive
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glyrocks
Feb 3, 2005, 4:49 AM
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Yea, that's a good point; they are designed to work as a full unit. But, I think it is still better than a regular runner. According to the manufacturer's specifications, it should not fail under the load created by a normal fall. It should only help reduce the load, even if it will not reduce the load as much as a new one. I'd really like to hear back from Yates on this...
Michael: If you're still looking, do you have a problem with Ice Screams on any particular brand/screw or all of them? Does the loop not pull easy enough? Just curious on the specifics with your problems with it.
P.S. expressing an opinion doesn't necessitate being an asshole, though some of y'all just can't seem to do it without being one.
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slobmonster
Feb 3, 2005, 5:19 AM
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In reply to: ...they are designed to work as a full unit. But, I think it is still better than a regular runner.
I am in agreement with Rendog on this one, mind you. I have hanging in the garage the two Screamers I blew in one fall on ice several years ago. No, I have not put them on my rack as full-length runners... though if in a pinch I would feel fine doing so.
Load-limiting slings are a fine addition to your rack. You have direct experience of this. If you're broke, and simply must climb some more pitches, then by all means bring your schmeezed Screamer along, just as proof of insurance (if nothing else).
Why did you fall to begin with?
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sandbag
Feb 3, 2005, 7:14 AM
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In reply to: P.S. expressing an opinion doesn't necessitate being an asshole, though some of y'all just can't seem to do it without being one.
Pot, hi there. Kettle here! How th Fuck are you!?!?!?!
:wink:
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healyje
Feb 3, 2005, 7:31 AM
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I've blown a bunch of air voyagers and screamers over the years - there is no problem using them down to the bone. You just have to be aware that if in the process of blowing if you hit that last stitch the load will jump back up some. I still use them with 1/2 and a 1/3 left. I do put a wrap and a half of sport tape, the top off which lines up with the first stitch that's left.
Never been a problem and that's how they are made to be used. These aren't rocket science or some sort of exotic deal - it's just a bunch of stitching designed to blow - it is sewn consistently down the length of the stitch and any part is as good as another...
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glyrocks
Feb 3, 2005, 4:10 PM
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Haha, maybe so sandbag, maybe so. Probably should have said "some of us..."
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sandbag
Feb 6, 2005, 4:56 AM
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In reply to: Haha, maybe so sandbag, maybe so. Probably should have said "some of us..."
;)
its all good.
CLimb On!
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headwaters
Feb 7, 2005, 4:10 AM
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I can't believe I actually recognized the climb. I went up there the next day to check it out and saw some fresh tracks. BTW, did you leave any anchors???? Found some booty. Looks like there's other nice stuff up there too. Bouldered the little (15-18') flow up the hill to these climb's left. I'm glad I can still count on my memory.
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glyrocks
Feb 8, 2005, 4:08 PM
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Huh, that's cool I guess. I'll send you a message here in a minute.
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cincysam
Feb 14, 2005, 9:45 PM
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BTW, Michael's Guidebook is great! Just got it a week or two ago (Southern Fried Ice)
s.
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