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jimdavis
Feb 4, 2005, 2:53 AM
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Yeah, why do it even?
I dont see the benefit of him bolting the route if it's so far out of his realm.
If he can't indentify the stances prior to drilling, the bolts won't be where you want them, and the route will be garbage.
Leave it to someone who knows what they're doing on .14s
Jim
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fracture
Feb 4, 2005, 3:40 AM
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All the posts about doing it "ground up" should be ignored due to their obvious complete lack of touch with reality: 14's bolted ground up, without aid are extremely rare (if there even are any). If the aformentioned posters are allowing aid, then it's no big deal, and many are done that way (because you can just drill as many rb holes as you need, making the "ground up"ness of it completely irrelevant).
There's nothing wrong with your friend bolting it if he has the time, money, and willingness to do so. If there are other routes which he could work on, it might be more worth his effort to do those first. If there are no 13+/14- climbers in your area, it might not particularly be worth spending the money to do so, but certainly no one should complain: it's a service by him to the community.
If he puts bolts in the wrong place, someone can always move them or add more later. No big deal.
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healyje
Feb 4, 2005, 4:13 AM
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In reply to: If there are no 13+/14- climbers in your area, it might not particularly be worth spending the money to do so, but certainly no one should complain: it's a service by him to the community.
Fracture and I are going to have to part company again on this one. No one running around with a drill putting up lines they can't remotely approach climbing is doing anyone a favor let alone "a service by him to the community". More likely he's an egocentric lunatic with a low self esteem simply agrandizing himself at the expense of the rock, any potential route, and the community. People who think any clueless dick roaming around with a drill is anything but a disservice needs to get grip before bolt wars and access problems start coming their way.
In reply to: If he puts bolts in the wrong place, someone can always move them or add more later. No big deal.
No big deal?? In a gym it's no big deal. On a rock it's a very big deal. Again, maybe you embrace the judeo-christian song "it's all put here simply for your to pillage..." but many of us don't. Again, a little respect for the rock and self is in order in this situation -- not encouragement.
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tnchief
Feb 4, 2005, 4:16 AM
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:shock: If the guy only topropes 11b, there is no way he can know where to best place the bolts. Additionally, he is a very long way from redpointing the route, particularly with a hard, bouldery start. So if the line is going to be bolted anyway, why not let someone who knows what they are doing bolt it? In most of the guidebooks I've seen the bolter is not listed, only the first ascentionist; and the route is generally named by the FA, right? My question is, why is this guy so hyped about bolting a route he'll probably never be able to send? Maybe so he can say, "I bolted it, but I can't climb it!" :roll:
Tell him to back off.
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ikefromla
Feb 4, 2005, 4:27 AM
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In reply to: If there are no 13+/14- climbers in your area... |
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sticky_fingers
Feb 4, 2005, 5:51 AM
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No. The rules clearly state on the bottom of page 201, and I quote, "...you must be at least a 5.11c climber before you can bolt any 5.14 routes...." Then it just goes off on a tangent about what shoes to wear, and what side you should rack up on, yadda yadda yadda. Go back and re-read pages 200-204 of your book. It's all right there.
I'm sorry but you'll really have to wait until you get to the "c" level. It's only fair to the rest of us.
:roll:
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danpayne
Feb 4, 2005, 7:16 AM
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In reply to: No. The rules clearly state on the bottom of page 201, and I quote, "...you must be at least a 5.11 c climber before you can bolt any 5.14 routes...." Then it just goes off on a tangent about what shoes to wear, and what side you should rack up on, yadda yadda yadda. Go back and re-read pages 200-204 of your book. It's all right there. I'm sorry but you'll really have to wait until you get to the "c" level. It's only fair to the rest of us.
Please ignore this retard,
It's page 237....
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guangzhou
Feb 4, 2005, 10:02 AM
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I know a few guys who climb 14 and I won't let them look at a drill, much less use one. On the other hand, I know climber who don't climb that level that I would trust bolting 5.18++.
The difference between bolting and climbing is huge. Someone can take the time to look for the best possible stances and drill a route that is well over their head.
To those who say bolt from the ground up, I say catch up to reality and get oput of the dark ages. Routes bolted on rappel have better placed bolts. Personally, I place bolts on lead only when I absolutely have too, but if I have the choice to; I rap bolted instead.
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lucas_timmer
Feb 4, 2005, 12:27 PM
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In reply to: Sure, why not? Isn't this America? Should the Rock Police tell a climber where and when he/she can try a new route? Seems like you are really only looking for validation for your own opinion. If you are so hot about the climb, go bolt it yourself.
No this isn't only America...
Everyone from around the world watch these forums..
Sukkel :twisted:
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overlord
Feb 4, 2005, 5:35 PM
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its not so much a question weahter he can or cat get the FA (he can still open the project).
hes probably not experienced enough to do a quality job. "young" climebers shouldnt bolt routes.
IMHO at least.
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slablizard
Feb 4, 2005, 5:53 PM
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No.
To bolt a .14 you have to be able to do the moves to see where the bolt should be placed. I f you climb .11s there's no way you'll be able to do the moves of a .14
Can a nascar driver drive a F1 car? Maybe with help, can he win in it? No way, he'll kill himself
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clausti
Feb 4, 2005, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: Routes bolted on rappel have better placed bolts
why would you say that is? i've personally never bolted anything, so I don't know, but wouldnt it follow logically that if you have to bolt on lead, you are going to be able to find a better stance than if you are hanging?
bolts that are like 6 ft. off route really kill me because I have a 5 foot armspan. if you bolted on rappel wouldnt you be more likely to misjudge the range of the placements?
for clarification: I don't really care about the "style" of putting bolts up on rappel vs. lead. they are going to end up living on the rock face no matter how they get there. what I am curious about is your thought process concerning the efficaciousness of the differing methods for safe, useful bolt placement.
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fracture
Feb 4, 2005, 6:53 PM
Post #38 of 145
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In reply to: In reply to: If he puts bolts in the wrong place, someone can always move them or add more later. No big deal. No big deal?? In a gym it's no big deal. On a rock it's a very big deal. Again, maybe you embrace the judeo-christian song "it's all put here simply for your to pillage..." but many of us don't. Again, a little respect for the rock and self is in order in this situation -- not encouragement.
You seem to see a lack of piety regarding the old-school religion as more analogous to judeo-christianity than a blind adherence to old-school dogma. I've seen you make statements to this effect before. However, in my mind, it is the exact opposite. The old-school approach demands irrational adherence to a set of rules that do not make sense and cannot be questioned---that is the essence of judeo-christianity (and religion in general).
Modern climbers more generally don't care so much about rules, and certainly not rules of a dogmatic nature. To many of them, "trad" means you are hangdogging on cams instead of on bolts. They don't care at all how the bolts got onto the rock and definitely have no real interest in who put them there. The zeitgeist is a bit different now: adherence to dogma is out---climbing for fun is in.
You talk of environmental "pillage", healyje. If you really mean what you say, and really think the impact of a bolt in some random chosspile is significant, for consistency sake, I'd encourage you to consider the difference in real environmental impact between a rap-bolted crag, and the city you live in.
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rob
Feb 4, 2005, 6:57 PM
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I'm actually going to go out on a limb here (as few other people seem to want to) and give a resounding HELL NO!
Nobody should even consider bolting something that is so far out of their 'project' level they can't chain all the moves together. I'm not saying they need to be able to send it, but if they can't do the first and second move, the second and third move, third and fourth, etc. (being able to do each move individually isn't enough to ensure the continuity and flow of the route).
Far more should go into bolting a route than just throwing a bolt into the rock every 10 feet.
A friend of mine who bolts spends a tonne of time working the moves of the route on top rope marking potential bolt locations with chalk, making sure everything is in place to ensure the route is as good as it could be before he starts drilling. He's put up everything from 9's to 13+, every one of them a classic (if it's not fun, he doesn't bolt it).
There is no reason for your friend to bolt a line so far out of his ability other than to feed his ego. And I suspect that would even fail as pretty much every climber I know would think that someone bolting a route 2+ number grades out of their ability level was a complete tool and would just make fun of them continually.
For what it's worth (for perspective). I consider myself an 11- leader. It doesn't mean I'm redpointing 11- (too many routes to climb to work redpoints), but I can generally get to the top with a fall or two. Depending on the style of the route, I could probably hangdog my way up some 12's. I would hope that any of my friends would beat me senseless with a heavy nut if I were to ever start seriously talking about bolting anything above a 12-.
Rob
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fracture
Feb 4, 2005, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If there are no 13+/14- climbers in your area... :shock: i can only NAME close to twenty... no big deal or anything. people need to hear more about Vegas i guess. :roll: sheeeesh.
Yeah...Hmm. Vay Gus. Sounds somewhat familiar... Don't they have a couple routes there? :P
(I didn't read the OP's location thingie 8^)).
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slablizard
Feb 4, 2005, 7:01 PM
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it's not simply on rappel, you first TR the route trying out the moves and finding out where the best spots are to clip, depending on the available holds and rock quality, you clean up the route during and after this process eliminating loose holds, moss and vegetation, then you rappel bolt on chalck pre-marked spots.
I did it a few times and belayed/helped quite a bit friends that were doing it back in Italy.
Also because when you drill you want to be sure the bolt will be in the best available spot, something that is harder to do if in the same time you are climbing.
(Just my experience)
In reply to: In reply to: Routes bolted on rappel have better placed bolts why would you say that is? i've personally never bolted anything, so I don't know, but wouldnt it follow logically that if you have to bolt on lead, you are going to be able to find a better stance than if you are hanging? bolts that are like 6 ft. off route really kill me because I have a 5 foot armspan. if you bolted on rappel wouldnt you be more likely to misjudge the range of the placements? for clarification: I don't really care about the "style" of putting bolts up on rappel vs. lead. they are going to end up living on the rock face no matter how they get there. what I am curious about is your thought process concerning the efficaciousness of the differing methods for safe, useful bolt placement. |
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fracture
Feb 4, 2005, 7:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Routes bolted on rappel have better placed bolts why would you say that is? i've personally never bolted anything, so I don't know, but wouldnt it follow logically that if you have to bolt on lead, you are going to be able to find a better stance than if you are hanging?
There are well-bolted routes done ground up without aid (but they're all like 5.10 and under, because after that it gets too hard to drill whenever you want), and there are bad rap-bolt jobs. But, in principle, the latter method (or the method of drilling an RB ladder to do it ground up) allows far more control over where you place the bolts, because you can theoretically place a bolt anywhere on the face that you think one is needed.
If you are drilling ground up without aid, you only get to drill when you find a no-hands stance. This results in runouts, and generally letting the route dictate where you can place the bolts instead of logic about where clips will be easy.
If you are drilling ground up, with aid, you have as much control as rab bolting, unless you arbitrarily limit yourself to hooking or something lame like that. In the latter case, you'll end up with a complete mess (like the Bachar-Yerian).
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jakedatc
Feb 4, 2005, 10:55 PM
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In reply to: A friend of mine who bolts spends a tonne of time working the moves of the route on top rope marking potential bolt locations with chalk
Yep. i know folks that do this.. i think it's a great method.. it's almost like bolting it on lead only you can do it multiple times to make sure you have the best positions
i think the OP's friend should get a 12+ climber to at least do all the moves and tick spots where they think bolts could go.. if not then let it be and have someone else bolt it when they can do it right
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healyje
Feb 4, 2005, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: Modern climbers more generally don't care so much about rules, and certainly not rules of a dogmatic nature. To many of them, "trad" means you are hangdogging on cams instead of on bolts. They don't care at all how the bolts got onto the rock and definitely have no real interest in who put them there. The zeitgeist is a bit different now: adherence to dogma is out---climbing for fun is in. You talk of environmental "pillage", healyje. If you really mean what you say, and really think the impact of a bolt in some random chosspile is significant, for consistency sake, I'd encourage you to consider the difference in real environmental impact between a rap-bolted crag, and the city you live in.
Fracture, I could give a rip about rules or dictating behavior until it comes to people screwing up the rock. Cliffs are a precious resource and your sweeping generalizations to cities are irrelavant - stick with just the cliffs here if you can.
On their own, independent of any other environments on earth, they are our vertical world and playground. Let's keep the conversation to that. There are a finite number of these vertical environments around - the judeo/christian reference is relative to your obvious "anything goes/bolt the shit out of it/it doesn't matter" perspective; i.e. it was all simply put here on earth for you to thrash anyway you please.
Many of us don't share that view and consider every vertical environment (no matter how chossy) as both a precious resource and as a habitat for other species. You and others may take that judeo/christian line and thrash away - but many of us believe fixed pro should always be a last resort and used judiciously. Are there cliffs where the rock mostly only allows pure [bolted] sport routes, sure - but everywhere else where the rock takes pro it should be left a mixed environment with bolts only used where absolutely necessary. I personally find it ironic that climbers tend to claim to be concerned about the environment until it gets to their recreational pursuit and then turn into flaming hypocrites...sad.
So it isn't dogma - it's just a common sense approach to preserving access, the character of climbing, and the habitats associated with these vertical environments. They aren't gyms, or canvases, they're the real world - let's attempt to retain a shred of collective self-respect and spine by not reducing them all to outdoor clip joints for the suburban hordes.
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fracture
Feb 5, 2005, 12:14 AM
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In reply to: Are there cliffs where the rock mostly only allows pure [bolted] sport routes, sure - but everywhere else where the rock takes pro it should be left a mixed environment with bolts only used where absolutely necessary.
Why? Not everyone buys your bolts-are-trash argument, and furthermore, none of this climbing stuff is "necessary" at all. There is no "where absolutely necessary"---you can just go home and choose a sport that doesn't risk "trashing" all the precious chossy cliffs that you claim to care so much about.
In reply to: So it isn't dogma - it's just a common sense approach to preserving access, ...
In some cases, access is much more potentially threatened by not bolting things well, due to the possibility of someone getting hurt. In other cases, access may be threatened by people trampling vegitation or using trees for anchors at the top of a cliff while setting topropes, when bolting them for lead would prevent the problem.
Access issues are always situation specific, and I assure you there are many crags where the land managers don't share your negative emotions toward people putting bolts into rocks.
...
So, I'd say we've thoroughly hijacked this thread by now, eh Joseph? :lol: 8^)
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sierrabc
Feb 6, 2005, 11:33 PM
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Sure, it'll be a project. The only way to get better, in my opinon, is to work things out of your reach. Go for it and have fun.
Happy Sending!
Sierra 8^)
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timstich
Feb 6, 2005, 11:43 PM
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In reply to: i've personally never bolted anything, so I don't know, but wouldnt it follow logically that if you have to bolt on lead, you are going to be able to find a better stance than if you are hanging?
When you bolt on rappel, you are simply drilling bolt placements that you first decided where to place on toprope. So ideally you have picked the line and given it a try. As you climb up, you can dab a ball of chalk where you think the bolts should go. Later, you rappel down and stop to place each bolt.
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guangzhou
Feb 7, 2005, 12:48 AM
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Assuming that this is a sport line, another words, a line that cannot be lead without bolts, than your friend should bolt it. This will definitely create a open project for other climbers who can climb it.
Before you partner bolts it, he needs to know: proper bolt placement, clean the route, look for stances. Since I have not seen the line first hand, I can’t tell whether a 5.11 top roper can decide where the best stances for clipping are, but it is conceivable that he can.
ABOUT BOLTING LINES THAT YOU CAN CLIMB:
Historically speaking, the standards of our sport were pushed by people who were willing to break the rules set by the previous old guards.
Wolfgang Gullich bolted a Action Direct (14+) now, before he, or anyone else in the world was ever able to climb the grade. He had vision, he failed, he designed a training regiment, and he came back several months later to do the first accent. He than rated the route 14b before any route had ever been rated 14a. When criticized for it, he held his ground.
Don’t tell me that this guy isn’t Wolfgang, I know this, but maybe he is one of the guys who will push the standards in his area or the country one day.
Some lines need to be bolted in order to effectively reverse the moves. Lines that are overhanging come to mind. By having the bolts, the climber(s) can actually work the sequence.
I personally like that this person is willing to challenge himself, develop new lines, and push the ethical envelop forward. I hope some of the locals support him on it. He mayevn be able to enlist help of some of the locals who may have overlooked the line prior to this.
Tell your partner to plan the line carefully, place the bolt skillfully, and train rigorously for the line. This could be the project line that pushes his skill, energy, and determination into a new direction.
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daggerx
Feb 7, 2005, 1:16 AM
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Not to sound mean but your friend is as dumb as they come, unless they climb that hard how in the world is he going to knows that a true 14? Unless you can climb that hard and have climbed other 14's to know what they are like how can u call it a 14? do me a favor next time you out with you friend just do the entire climbing world a favor and push him off the top of some tall face with out any belay.
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healyje
Feb 7, 2005, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: Historically speaking, the standards of our sport were pushed by people who were willing to break the rules set by the previous old guards.
No, historically speaking, the standards of our sport were pushed by innovative and extremely bold people who took risks to push those standards - little or no "breaking of rules" was involved. Sport climbing pushed physical limits primarily on rock that wouldn't take pro, like many of the lines at Smith or on Limestone areas.
In reply to: Don’t tell me that this guy isn’t Wolfgang, I know this, but maybe he is one of the guys who will push the standards in his area or the country one day.
This guy isn't Wolfgang who was within shooting distance of doing any route he gave a try. This guy has neither the skills, nor the ability to climb this route at this time - i.e. he's going to bolt a route far, far beyond his ability; not one that is within reasonable grasp.
If you currently have no remote hope of climbing a route, leave it alone until you or someone else can. It's the simple difference between being a climber and a poser...
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