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wzrdgandalf
May 5, 2005, 10:14 PM
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Please dont freak out because i ask this question. I am new to climbing and i would think that if a trad line is bolted then if someone wants to climb it with trad gear then they can still do that. perhaps people get mad about it because the bolts increase traffic on that area? is it the fact that there is just another impact on the rock that shouldnt be there? is it the elitist attitude? <-just kidding
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powder_dreams
May 5, 2005, 10:18 PM
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Bah! Troll.
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sed
May 5, 2005, 10:25 PM
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bypassing bolts in favor of using pro or running it out is like getting in a fight with someone while three of your tougher friends are standing behind you. It doesn't take the level of courage or skill to commit to it. knowing you can clip into the bolts if you need to removes something from the climb, whether you clip or not.
S
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slhappy
May 5, 2005, 10:25 PM
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stay home on your couch and ponder these stuip things alone. do more ab crunches and bolt a line to your tv to pop in the next video... sick...
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ksolem
May 5, 2005, 10:38 PM
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There's been a string of these bolting threads lately (shoot, I'm mixing my metaphors again,) and while everyone argues about bolting as it relates to what they want to do climbing, no one has raised this basic point. When you can protect a climb without bolts, you are leaving the rock in it's natural condition. Now it could be that there are places (quarries etc.) where this is not an issue, but in beautiful places on beautiful cliffs placing unneeded bolts for the convenience of climbers at the detriment of the pritine rock is wrong. And this idea that if you don't want to use them you don't have to just plain stupid. Try this. If you need bolts on a climb which protects well naturally then you are in over your head or just plain lazy.
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dougtaylor
May 5, 2005, 10:45 PM
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I'll take the bait. You posed a few questions in your post.
perhaps people get mad about it because the bolts increase traffic on that area? Yes sometimes.
is it the fact that there is just another impact on the rock that shouldnt be there? Big Huge Fat Most Of All Yes.
is it the elitist attitude? Yes sometimes.
Since you're new to climbing, you probably feel way more secure clipping into a bolt. However, I think you'll find that if you spend some time climbing trad lines that are easy to protect and learn how to place gear well, you'll find that a route that has adequate natural pro available is just as secure, often MORE secure than a bolted line.
I'm sure plenty of other folks will voice their opinions on the matter. Hope this helps.
Doug T
In reply to: Please dont freak out because i ask this question. I am new to climbing and i would think that if a trad line is bolted then if someone wants to climb it with trad gear then they can still do that. perhaps people get mad about it because the bolts increase traffic on that area? is it the fact that there is just another impact on the rock that shouldnt be there? is it the elitist attitude? <-just kidding |
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tchamber
May 5, 2005, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: There's been a string of these bolting threads lately (shoot, I'm mixing my metaphors again,) and while everyone argues about bolting as it relates to what they want to do climbing, no one has raised this basic point. When you can protect a climb without bolts, you are leaving the rock in it's natural condition. Now it could be that there are places (quarries etc.) where this is not an issue, but in beautiful places on beautiful cliffs placing unneeded bolts for the convenience of climbers at the detriment of the pritine rock is wrong. And this idea that if you don't want to use them you don't have to just plain stupid. Try this. If you need bolts on a climb which protects well naturally then you are in over your head or just plain lazy.
You sir, get a trophy. Well said.
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crshbrn84
May 5, 2005, 10:56 PM
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:troll: :deadhorse: :troll: :deadhorse:
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shorty
May 5, 2005, 11:38 PM
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In reply to: Please dont freak out because i ask this question...
Please, folks, do not let our bolting threads die. It is our constitutional right (and duty!) to continue such discourse until all internet users throughout the land have offered their wisdom to the masses. Repeatedly.
And let us not forget the power of the lowly "bump" post, so that those humble servants of the word may continue to show their support of this (and similar) thread(s), even if their contributions aren't worth cow dung.
God, I love this website.
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deschamps1000
May 5, 2005, 11:45 PM
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To answer your question... its a few things...
1. A crack allows for a route to be climbed safely without causing permanent damage to the rock. So there is no reason to not do so. Part of climbing is getting out and enjoy beautiful prestine environments, and we should leave them as so when possible. I'm sure you'll agree it is wrong to spraypaint on rocks. Bolting should be avoided when possible for the same reason. It permanently damages the rock.
I am NOT against sport climbing and I do enjoy it. You should just avoid placing a bolt when there is another safe alternative.
2. One of the most beautiful things about climbing trad is that you can look at a crack. Climb it. Leave. And nobody can tell you've ever been there. It is fully self-supported. When you climb a crack with bolts, somebody has already been there to "prepare it" for you. Even if you choose not to use them they are there anyway.
It's like installing an escalator on a trail. You may still hike up the hill, but with the escalator next to you it changes the experience. I know it is different, but same concept.
3. Here's a big one. Many climbers love to climb unbolted cracks. Other climbers like to sport climb. Traditionally, cracks have been kept for trad climbers, and faces have been given to sport climbers. This creates a very fair balance, and allows everybody to engage in the type of climbing they love. I think that upsetting this balance will make one group of climbers lose, while another group does not gain much.
I hope this answers your question.
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healyje
May 5, 2005, 11:48 PM
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In a nutshell, the question is the problem...
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112
May 6, 2005, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: I am new to climbing and i would think that if a trad line is bolted then if someone wants to climb it with trad gear then they can still do that.
It's like coming home from a long trip and walking in on your girlfriend while she's getting it on with some other guy.
It hurts to see, when all you wanted to do was slide your nuts up in that nice crack. :shock:
You could act like you didn't see them, but c'mon.
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bandycoot
May 6, 2005, 12:47 AM
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Alright, which do you think that OP is?
1. A troll
2. An idiot
3. A dick
4. Any combination of the above....
I vote 4, a blend of 1 and 2!
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philfell
May 6, 2005, 2:08 AM
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Why would you put in a bolt when you can leave the area clean?
Who wants to see count less shiny metal bolts when there is no need?
Who is going to replace all these extra bolts in the future when they wear out and become an accident waiting to happen?
When you do need to replace these bolts you will have to MORE holes in the rock and have more metal glaring in the sun.
How do you know that the bolt your clipping is good? You are actually making climbing more dangerous than it already is, because you're taking away skills from future climbers. Welcome to climbing, no need to learn how to protect yourself everything is bolted for you, you don't need to think.......
Learn about the history, think about the future, learn about all aspects of climbing. DON'T try to force what you prefer to do on everyone else.
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wzrdgandalf
May 6, 2005, 3:32 AM
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wow it never ceases to amaze me how people make themselves feel better by making fun of a kid online. Do you really feel better about yourself after making fun of a 17 year old on an internet forum? Does it make you feel like you are somehow better than me because you can use sarcasm? It was a simple question that was explained very well by deschamps1000, dougtaylor, and a few others. usually these forums are made so that people can share ideas freely with others, instead people like shorty and slhappy use it to boost their self worth by using witty comments like "mensa candidate" to describe someone who has recently started climbing and has a genuine desire to understand the ideas behind ethics. At least i am not the a$$hole that doesnt bother learning these things and goes to your crag and bolts a beautiful crack. thank you for the people that are kind enough to provide meaningful answers to the question at hand.
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remi
May 6, 2005, 3:53 AM
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this old chestnut again? yawn....
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112
May 6, 2005, 3:59 AM
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In reply to: thank you for the people that are kind enough to provide meaningful answers to the question at hand.
No problem, I like to help out.
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giza
May 6, 2005, 4:18 AM
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T.9
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blonde_loves_bolts
May 6, 2005, 4:23 AM
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I think a picture of a hot girl climbing is a great distraction from this debate. Right on!
:lol:
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weasel
May 6, 2005, 4:33 AM
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The truth is, putting bolts on a trad climb is like putting a road right next to a hiking trail. It increases traffic, makes it too easy, and loses the purist aspect of connecting with nature.
If you can, keep it clean.
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ikefromla
May 6, 2005, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: I think a picture of a hot girl climbing is a great distraction from this debate. Right on! :lol:
nooooooo
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dingus
May 6, 2005, 4:39 AM
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I think the rope and the bolts and that girl's top really distract from the quality of that shot. Couldn't one of you photoshop wizkids like, fix it?
DMT
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curt
May 6, 2005, 4:46 AM
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They tore down paradise and put up a parking lot.....
Curt
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