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srs
Feb 19, 2006, 10:36 PM
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So far Shadowline, Urge to Merge, Cousins and Line of Fire have been chopped at El Cajon Mountain. If you come across any other climbs that have been chopped, please report them to the community here. Shadowline was chopped in November. Urge to Merge was chopped in late January and this week Cousins and Line of Fire were discovered chopped.
Cousins 11c and Line of Fire 11a are on the lower dihedrals on the far right hand side of the cliff. These were put up by Brian Spiewak. Both lines were exceptional lines. The routes are unquestionably sport routes not trad routes. Urge to Merge 5.9 is on the left hand side of the wall and was put up by Gary Anderson and Art Messier. The route came under fire by a couple of posts during the last thread about El Cajon Mountain. Two letters were written and eventually posted on this website when Art Messier stole Brian Spiewak’s drill (a thousand dollars worth of equipment in all), made verbal threats of violence and chopped Shadowline.
Art Messier has had plenty of experience chopping and patching routes. His patch work is identifiable and a former climbing partner of Art’s has seen all of the routes that have been chopped and is sure that this is Art’s destruction. As was noted on previous posts Art has a vast history of confrontation that results in route chopping. Art has not communicated why he is choosing to destroy these routes or returned Brian’s drill. He refuses to answer his phone or respond to anyone’s attempts to discuss this with him. He has removed his website and erased all of his postings from rockclimbing.com.
The routes that were chopped are gone forever in the original line they were meant to follow. The position of a bolt is usually placed because there is a good stance or the rock quality is the best for that placement. Bolts cannot be put back in the original placement and therefore the rock and route has been compromised.
Whether you are a sport climber or a trad climber or both there is no denying the quality and beauty of the climbing at El Cajon Mt. There is something there for everyone and the years of work involved in creating the routes, by people with first-rate skills and experience, need to be preserved and in my opinion respected. We need to unite as a community before the whole cliff gets chopped; which, by the way, is where this is headed since he seems to be acting out his threats.
Are there any constructive suggestions out there on how to stop this man from completely destroying this incredible backyard resource?
srs
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alleyehave
Feb 19, 2006, 10:57 PM
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I've got a couple...let me know if you come up with anything or anybody else does and I will help in any way possible...
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weschrist
Feb 20, 2006, 12:08 AM
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In reply to: Are there any constructive suggestions out there on how to stop this man from completely destroying this incredible backyard resource? srs
are you serious? you really think there is anything other than beating the shit out of this asshole that will put an end to his crap?
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welikoa
Feb 20, 2006, 8:06 AM
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oh yeah, last weekend somebody took out the logs to cross the creek to the trail head. There is another way around we found through some bushes, but definitely fishy. Art is like a sasquatch now, forever put into the category of mystery and sightings and evidence of its existence.
Seriously though, I am so F@@ing mad I dont even know what to do.
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overlord
Feb 20, 2006, 8:24 AM
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seems like some ppl just never grow up...
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alleyehave
Feb 20, 2006, 9:07 AM
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Hahahaha! Art the sasquatch... The guy just needs a new hobby, and a life, oh well.
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sonso45
Feb 20, 2006, 6:56 PM
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You could start legal proceedings such as a letter of injunction. I'm sure that enough witnesses to his conduct and threatening behavior would come forth. Good luck.
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jv
Feb 20, 2006, 7:46 PM
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At the risk of stating the obvious, this is indefensible. For those of you who are interested in the history of this dispute, read the following:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/103106
I don't know why it doesn't show up on the related threads list below.
Sonso if you know of a legal decision recognizing a property right in bolts installed on a rock, please pm me.
JV
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timstich
Feb 20, 2006, 8:18 PM
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Jesus, I read about five minutes worth of this Art guy and had to stop. Sorry to hear you have such a reprehensible nutjob in your area over there. That really is sad. I have had runins with people just like Art in other areas, notably caving. They are something else to behold.
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aznrockclimber82
Feb 20, 2006, 9:04 PM
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I second the "nutjob" comment. What's with the self-proclaimed "coalition" anyways. I would totally feel lonely if I didn't create something like that with friends....even if we were elitests...at least I was doing it with a friend. If this guy is bodering and crossing over the line on verbal threats, I would assume it's time for the local authorities to be involved. noone wants the climbing area to be shutdown, but by the looks of it, it'll be shuttdown by the nutjob soon anyways. This matter probably needs to be taken care of before someone get's hurt. Someone alone like that can work themselves up into such a heat that something terrible could come out of all this. my two cents. Good luck guys.
Monk.
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dingus
Feb 20, 2006, 9:06 PM
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In reply to: I second the "nutjob" comment.
He reads these threads and is stoked to hear of your discontent.
DMT
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bandycoot
Feb 20, 2006, 9:51 PM
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All the "nutjob" and "beating the shit out of this asshole" comments aside, the guy has the potential to do a lot of good and has done a lot of work for the San Diego community in the past. Is there anyway someone can TALK to him and derail this destructive behavior? Ranting on the internet won't get us very far. It is really unfortunate that routes up there are being chopped, and I'm glad that I did Urge to Merge the weekend before it disappeared.
Threatening to kick his ass won't get us anywhere, and neither will calling him a nut job behind his back. Hell, if someone can get me his contact information I'll be glad to call him or write him a reasonable letter. I'm sure it would go over better if it were someone he were friends with, but I'd be willing to try. I don't know him, but I've met him numerous times at the crag and at Access Fund "Adopt-a-crag" events that he helped organize, and he seemed like a nice guy.
Josh Higgins
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alleyehave
Feb 21, 2006, 12:04 AM
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In reply to: Hell, if someone can get me his contact information I'll be glad to call him or write him a reasonable letter. I'm sure it would go over better if it were someone he were friends with, but I'd be willing to try.
Unfortunately it looks like this approach has already been attempted...but best of luck to ya!
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bandycoot
Feb 21, 2006, 12:13 AM
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In reply to: Unfortunately it looks like this approach has already been attempted...but best of luck to ya!
I still think that it would be more productive than endless discussion, lame threats, or name calling on a website... 8^)
Josh Higgins
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esoteric1
Feb 21, 2006, 2:45 AM
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you my friends, are pathetic.
who is this srs guy anyway? looks like your hiding to me....
way to spread rumors, what is this....high school?
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sausalito
Feb 21, 2006, 2:55 AM
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if he never returned the drill have him arrested. If he made threats take a restraining order out against him. Other than legal avenues I wouldnt mess with this guy. Sure it sucks but you dont want to continue to push the line with him. Something tells me he will cross lines a lot quicker than most people....
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alleyehave
Feb 21, 2006, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: you my friends, are pathetic. who is this srs guy anyway? looks like your hiding to me.... way to spread rumors, what is this....high school?
I suggest you read this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/103106
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esoteric1
Feb 21, 2006, 6:05 AM
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i know the story, or one side of it rather.......
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ga
Feb 21, 2006, 7:17 AM
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I was Art's partner for the past two years putting up routes at El Cap Wall.I knew little about him or any of his past history prior to our outings.
As the cliff became developed, Art began having confrontations with some of others putting up routes. After witnessing several of these encounters,it was obvious that he was a 'Hot Head' and very inflexible in dealing with others. It was becoming clear that Art wants to be in control and make all the decisions, like he owned the cliff. Upon talking to Chris and Brain, I learned of Art's history at Mission Gorge, the good and bad. This just reinforced my observations of Art's behavior at El Cap Wall. I just couldn't handle his outbursts any more the day we saw some climbers on a new route 'Shadow Line' and haven't seen or talked to him since. I was dismayed but not surprised what he did next with Brian's gear. I knew that this was a point of no return for him, and his destructive behavior would emerge. After these confrontations with Randy,Brain & Chris, Art would start raging to me that he was going to chop all of their routes, in fact the whole cliff and get the Forestry Service to close the area down. I figured that he was blowing off steam but knew the potential was there. The problem is that Art has compulsive/obsessive personality and really can't stop what he is now engaged in. He has destroyed parts of the trail , stolen gear and is now in the process of destroying the whole cliff. He knows how fucked up his actions are by the fact that he has removed his web site and e-mail, changed his phone # & won't explain his actions. He goes on this site daily to see what everyone says about his deeds and as he said to me "I thrive on all the negativity". I seriously doubt that Art will be seen by anyone at El Cap due to all the bad feelings. But be assured that he will be actively chopping bolts up there as his way of controlling your access to some of the best climbing in So. Cal. If you happen to see a old grey Nissan pick-up during the weekdays at or near the parking area, that would be Art taking his anger out on the climbing community.
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alleyehave
Feb 21, 2006, 7:29 AM
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What I have noticed, is that the "people" that keep giving us the "news" on this tidbit, happens to be a different user each time, with no more than one post, who created the account the day of their post.
Who are YOU and what are YOU trying to hide? ga, miguelito, and srs...
WTF is that all about?
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crotch
Feb 21, 2006, 4:53 PM
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Ummm. GA just told you who he is. Art's former partner. Pick up a guide to ECM and connect the dots.
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jv
Feb 21, 2006, 5:19 PM
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I'll vouch for the credibility of these people. Careful reading of the original thread reveals that Miguelito merely posted letters that were written and signed by Stacey Stevenson and Chris Hubbard, and another by Brian Spiewak. It's not too difficult to deduce that srs is Stacey, and ga is Gary Anderson.
John Vawter
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alleyehave
Feb 21, 2006, 7:17 PM
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In reply to: Now if you want to take pot shots at someone's credibility, I suggest you come out from behind your own pseudonym. Otherwise, put a sock in it.
I was simply stating the obvious. Click on WWW in my profile, you can learn all about me that you need to. Coming from someone who doesn't KNOW these people in real life such as yourself, it looked skeptical. Look at it from my point of view. Now relax turbo ted.
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ga
Feb 21, 2006, 8:00 PM
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Hey Alleyehave, John is correct as to who I am and yes I do know him.
I have not logged on before this as I didn't want to fuel Art's need for all this attention. But it has obviously gone beyond that. You seem to be leaning to Art's side of things and that's good because he would need a friend about now. So if you've kept up on all the threads I can assure you that most of what's there is factual.
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alleyehave
Feb 21, 2006, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: Hey Alleyehave, John is correct as to who I am and yes I do know him. I have not logged on before this as I didn't want to fuel Art's need for all this attention. But it has obviously gone beyond that. You seem to be leaning to Art's side of things and that's good because he would need a friend about now. So if you've kept up on all the threads I can assure you that most of what's there is factual.
Okay cool, and like I told John, it's not that im doubting anyone, just that for people like me who solely receive this info over the internet..I just dont want to follow blindly. And I certainly don't lean towards anyone's side that is or possibly chopping bolts unnecessarily, regardless of the reason.
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