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xpsucore09x
Apr 26, 2006, 4:28 AM
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So I went rappelling for the first time on Easter Sunday at the Gunks. I had the belay device above me and the prusik connected to my leg loop and the rope I believe.
I had so much troble coming down. I was barely moving and a few times I had to really feed the rope through the ATC. I got stuck a few times too and exerted so much energy trying to get down. I had fun going up but dread rappelling again. How do the rest of you guys rappell?
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blouderk2
Apr 26, 2006, 5:16 AM
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Backing up a rappel with a prusik is a good idea, especially when you are new to rappelling. I can think of a few instances when having a prusik to backup my rappel would have been nice. I normally just rappel and skip the backup. When a prusik is loaded it is hard to get it unweighted sometimes, this could have been your problem. What size mm rope where you using?
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xpsucore09x
Apr 26, 2006, 5:20 AM
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I really don't know. I was climbing with some people who have been climbing outside for years. I have been climbing indoors for 6 years and just made the jump to outside finally.
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rockguide
Apr 26, 2006, 5:20 AM
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Rappelling with a self-belay prussik is smooth and easy, if you are good at it. Many people try it, struggle, and write off the technique before they develop any skill at it.
Common errors that lead to what you describe - I bet you did one or more of these:
1) Belay tube (in your case the ATC) is upside down or clipped to the tie in points rather than the belay loop. This creates a twist and interferes with the smooth flow of the rappel.
2) three wraps rather than two wraps of the prussik. Two is enough to back up a friction device rather than the three for rescue purposes/rope ascending.
3) You clipped the prussik to the leg loop. This shortens the cord. Better to untie your doublefisherman's, build your prussik on the rope, run one strand behind the leg loop and tie an overhand below the legloop to close the loop. This means there is more prussik strand to make loose so there can be alot of space between the prussik and the rope. Much quicker, and it will still bite on demand. NOTE: the penberthy or "autoblock" version uses a carabiner. They are different gripping hitches and much smoother inherently than a prussik. The prussik benefits from being made more loose on a self belay.
4) You rappelled with one hand above the device and one hand below doing double duty brake hand/ prussik tender. Put both hands below the device, the top hand is the brake, the bottom tends the prussik.
I have used self belays (when needed) for years. If you are good at it, it is smooth and gives additional security on more complex rappels (such as sorting stuck ropes, photography, rescue, etc etc.)
Brian
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viperziz
Apr 26, 2006, 5:33 AM
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Since I'm sure I'm not the most experienced here wait till others give my advise the thumbs up. Or mock me... whatever I'm just trying to help.
A prussic is always a good idea. Try placing a SHORT prussic loop (so you can still reach it when it's weighted) above the belay device and using a locker clip it to your belay loop. Then use your "guide hand" (opposite of break hand) on the prussic. (note: this only works on a one rope rappel)
If one of your buddies are at the bottom and if you feel comfortable enough they could also do whats called a fireman's belay...
They hold the rope below you and pull on it if you seem to have trouble, this action will slow you down if not, stop you immediately.
Usually I just use the belay device only.
Good Luck!
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salamanizer
Apr 26, 2006, 5:35 AM
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I'm not sure of your exact set up or situation but I assume you either had a auto block or you had your prusik knot too tight which caused too much friction or kept locking up.
An auto block is a friction knot tied below your ATC on the brake end of the rope and attached to the leg loop of your harness. If you had this set up it may be that you just need a little practice. I personally hate the auto block, think it to be dangerous and a real pain in the ass to set up and manage. If you just had a prusik knot attached above your ATC then it just may be that the knot was cinched down too tight and was causing too much friction or locking up on you. I don't like the prusik knot either. I prefer the Klemheist tied around a carabiner or Bachmann tied around a carabiner over the prusik any day. They are both easier to tie, control and unlock after they have been weighted.
Here's what I do: Tie a Bachmann knot around a carabiner above your rappel device and attach it to the leg loop of your harness. Make sure it's short enough that you can still reach it if it locks up on you. This system is so simple even a primate could control a smooth rappel on its first try. The carabiner in the Bachmann is the key. It gives you something to hold onto, makes the knot really easy to loosen should it lock up on you for any reason, is really easy/fast to tie and is just as safe if not safer than any other rappel back up knot.
Happy rapping!
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omegaprime
Apr 26, 2006, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: 3) You clipped the prussik to the leg loop. This shortens the cord. Better to untie your doublefisherman's, build your prussik on the rope, run one strand behind the leg loop and tie an overhand below the legloop to close the loop. This means there is more prussik strand to make loose so there can be alot of space between the prussik and the rope. Much quicker, and it will still bite on demand. NOTE: the penberthy or "autoblock" version uses a carabiner. They are different gripping hitches and much smoother inherently than a prussik. The prussik benefits from being made more loose on a self belay.
Just to check, but from what I know autoblock doesn't use a biner. See this. Bachman uses a biner. Can you confirm we're talking about the same thing?
To the OP, did you extend the belay device? It helps at times.
Edited to add: The link function went screwy on me, looks okay in preview mode but messed up in the topic. Here's the link.
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm#Autoblock
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm#Bachman
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patto
Apr 26, 2006, 6:28 AM
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What do you mean by "I had the belay device above me"??? Do you mean that it wasn't just connected to you belay loop? Extending your belay device with a short sling is a recognised technique though it does increase the friction of the device.
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mrsuicide
Apr 26, 2006, 6:54 AM
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i use an autoblock below the device some times. it is very easy to unweight and locks up just fine.
you just clip a short prusik loop (i think mine is from a 4.5' 6 mm cord) to a legloop, wrap it around 3 times and clip it back to the biner. Keep your hand on the rope above the autoblock (NOT gripping the autoblock) and you are good to go.
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aradia
Apr 26, 2006, 8:39 AM
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In reply to: So I went rappelling for the first time on Easter Sunday at the Gunks. I had the belay device above me and the prusik connected to my leg loop and the rope I believe. I had so much troble coming down. I was barely moving and a few times I had to really feed the rope through the ATC. I got stuck a few times too and exerted so much energy trying to get down. I had fun going up but dread rappelling again. How do the rest of you guys rappell?
If the hitch is above the ATC, it holds full body weight and can be a bit irritating to loosen. If the hitch is below the ATC, it holds less weight and is significantly easier to loosen. Do note that if it's below the ATC, be sure that it's short enough to not get sucked into the ATC. That's where extending the ATC is handy. This will help when you get stuck, but doesn't necessarily do much to prevent getting stuck. ;)
The hitch you use, how well you tend to it, and how fast you're coming down all determine the smoothness. And, of course, practice practice practice! Start by rapping slowly until you get the hang of it. It's easier to tend to the hitch and keep it sliding if you're not going down too quickly. Also, don't use your brake hand to tend the hitch. One hand to brake, one hand to tend the hitch, as someone else mentioned.
Finally, the hitch you use also makes a difference. The prusik cinches tightly, and can be a pain to loosen. There are better alternatives. The french prusik (what many incorrectly call the "autoblock") slips easily, and in some cases can slip too easily (ie, not cinch up). The bachman comes with a convenient handle, and is probably most practical when used above the ATC, but you have to be certain that if your rap gets out of control, you don't hang on to the carabiner. The klemheist is a good hitch, cinches well, and is supposed to be pretty easy to loosen. The hedden also cinches well, and is pretty easy to loosen, but requires fewer wraps than most other hitches.
I like the hedden personally, but really, you should try them all in a safe setting to become familiar with their pros and cons.
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mattyp
Apr 26, 2006, 9:52 AM
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Omegaprime:
The "Autoblock" is essentially the same knot as the Klemheist, except that in the last step you simply clip both tails together with a carabiner, rather than feeding one through the other
Ok, this is copied from your link. I think that it DOES say that an autoblock uses a carabiner.
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omegaprime
Apr 26, 2006, 10:37 AM
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Well, if you're taking about using a biner to clip the end of the prussic with the harness, yes both Kleimheist and Autoblock uses it.
But I quoted the part from rockguide that sounds like a Bachman, but referred to as autoblock. So just trying to find clarification if he's talking about a Bachman or using the biner as above.
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azrockclimber
Apr 26, 2006, 11:38 AM
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I don't use a prusik...
Well, thats not entirely true. I will occasionally use a prusik if I am worried about something... I.e. falling rocks, wet rope, so cold that my hands are freezing off....etc... Few and far between though.
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shiggetyshiva
Apr 26, 2006, 12:04 PM
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Using a friction knot to back up your brake hand can be a pain in the ass, but is something I routinely do now after windy conditions caused my brake hand to be smashed between my leg and the rock on a largely free rappel at the Gunks. I use an autoblock on my leg loop on any rappel that is vertical or over-vertical, or longer than 15-20m. See this RC.com article for more info on the autoblock:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...cles/index.php?id=53
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reg
Apr 26, 2006, 12:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: So I went rappelling for the first time on Easter Sunday at the Gunks. I had the belay device above me and the prusik connected to my leg loop and the rope I believe. I had so much troble coming down. I was barely moving and a few times I had to really feed the rope through the ATC.? The hitch you use, how well you tend to it, .
i think you didn't "tend" the hitch - not so much the type of hitch. if you keep the hitch loose as well as down and away from your friction device so as not to "false load" it - they ride very smoothly. you don't want the wraps of any of the hitches to be even slightly snug around the rope - that will cause friction and cause the hitch to bind - slowing your rap. also these friction devices work really and just the angle the rope enters the device can be the difference between smooth or restricted rappelling.
remember - rappelling - albeit fun - is the most dangerous part of climbing. mistakes here are not often forgiven. ka-ching (my $.02)
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boondock_saint
Apr 26, 2006, 1:25 PM
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No one seems to have adressed the part you actually had a problem with:
Having to literally feed the rope into the ATC. That is perfectly normal when you first start to rapell (and i mean the first 5 - 10 meters). If you've got the entire rope hanging down below you that is quite a bit of weight and it will have a similar effect as you pulling down on the rope with your brake hand. This is just something you'll have to get used to.
I almost never back up my rapell (other than when I know I need to stop like when I'm taking pics) but when I do, I make a prussig above the atc. It allows me to lift my right hand and feed the rope into the atc to get going without having to fiddle with the back up. I prefer no back up though, instead have a friend just standing down for a firemans if something goes really wrong.
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ao
Apr 26, 2006, 1:48 PM
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I rappel the exact same way- using a prussik that's attached to the leg loop with a biner. The only times I've found where I got "stuck" is when I looped the prussik around the rope too many times. Don't loop the prussik so many times that it's tight before you even start rapping- make sure there's a little give to it. You'll find that you can rap a lot smoother, but still have your backup.
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j_ung
Apr 26, 2006, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: NOTE: the penberthy or "autoblock" version uses a carabiner. Just to check, but from what I know autoblock doesn't use a biner. ... Here's the link. http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm#Autoblock
Ah, but the autoblock does use a biner. Quote from the link you posted: "The 'Autoblock' is essentially the same knot as the Klemheist, except that in the last step you simply clip both tails together with a carabiner, rather than feeding one through the other."
To the OP: Try an autoblock instead of a prussik, and make sure it's tied neatly. Tends to bind otherwise.
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rockguide
Apr 26, 2006, 1:52 PM
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In reply to: Well, if you're taking about using a biner to clip the end of the prussic with the harness, yes both Kleimheist and Autoblock uses it. But I quoted the part from rockguide that sounds like a Bachman, but referred to as autoblock. So just trying to find clarification if he's talking about a Bachman or using the biner as above.
The autoblock is usually build by clipping a carabiner to the legloop, clipping a sling to that, wrapping it up along the rope, and back to the legloop carabiner. The penberthy is the same, but 6mm cord with an overhand knot on either end, and tied 8 inches apart. clip one loop to the legloop carabiner, wrap the cord up (3-4 wraps) and clip the other end in. This system is very smooth to rappel with but somewhat less secure - if it touches the rappel device it will start sliding.
The bachman is similar, but pins an additional carabiner between the rope and the cord/sling. Even less secure than the autoblock/penberthy and something I have never, ever seen to back up a rappel.
Hope that clears up the more cryptic parts of my suggestions.
Brian
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bobruef
Apr 26, 2006, 2:09 PM
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I've personally been struggling w/ the binding autoblock knot below the ATC lately, especially on double rope raps. As a matter of principle, I try to use one as often as possible, but I've been finding them to be an all around pain in the ass. I'm still persisting though, trying to find the 'secret formula'.
What I've found so far-
1. If your prussic is too short, and clipped to your leg loop, it redirects the path of the rope from its natural position on your side, putting a bend in it. This causes binding to be more of an issue.
2. Diameter makes a big difference. I've foudn 5 mm to be much too small for rap back-up duty on my 10.3 rope. I got some softer 6mm PMI cordage that I think will work better.
3. The number of wraps for a rap back up arent necessarily the same as you would use for ascending the rope.
4. If you extend your rappel, you might try setting up the friction knot off of your belay loop, rather than your leg loop. This allows the brake hand to assume the lower position, while the top hand keeps the prussic nice and loose. This hand orientation prevents the weight of the rope from acting right at your prussic tending hand. Its hard to describe, but if you keep the path of the rope running straight on either side of the knot (as the above mentioned hand positioning does), it should help with binding considerably.
Of course, as always, make sure that you've got sufficient distance between your knot and the belay device.
Hope this helps.
Anyone use run their prussic off the belay loop?
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dirtineye
Apr 26, 2006, 2:10 PM
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IF your auto block sling is too long but not by much, you can girth hitch the sling to the leg loop, do the wraps, and then biner back to your leg loop.
People giving advice about the exact number of wraps is a little funny, the number of wraps that you will need depends on your ropes, your weight, your device and your auto blocking material.
Experiment with how many wraps you need.
And remember, an unset auto block may not block anything. Always set the auto block before you weight it.
IF you are planning on stopping for long on a rappel, and using both hands for work or whatever, you should also put in a backup knot below your device and friction knot.
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climbiniowa
Apr 26, 2006, 2:34 PM
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Just a quick thing about the prussick. It can work really really well for you, as long as when you're going down on the rappel, you're not holding on to it for dear life. It's a backup, not your primary system. Therefore, use two fingers at the top of it to guide it down, instead of clamping down on it. It'll also preserve your rope and your prussick better, as there wont be as much friction between the two.
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mitguy
Apr 26, 2006, 4:38 PM
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I always rappel on an extension with my autoblock clipped to my belay loop. The number of wraps doesn't matter if you do things right. I have rapped smoothly on an obscene number of wraps because my cord is too long. As long as you keep the autoblock on long enough loops that the rope will feed smoothly into the belay device, you are set. The problem with having to feed the rope through the device comes from the rope being pulled too much toward the device, causing it to lock off.
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omegaprime
Apr 27, 2006, 1:26 AM
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Okay, I got it now. rockguide, thanks for elaborating on it. :D
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majid_sabet
Apr 27, 2006, 2:09 AM
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I run the rope thru the middle of my legs to the back, over my shoulder toward the front then, run it to the left and bring back to the right and I keep the rope with my right hand and I just let go the rope slowly .
NO HARNESS, NO BELAY DEVICE, NO PRUSIK, NO PROBLEM AND IT IS SAFE.
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