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vegastradguy
May 9, 2006, 6:25 AM
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A little preamble- for those haven't heard, the BLM here in Las Vegas is preparing to draft a Wilderness Management Plan for Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area. In that plan there will be a new Climbing Management Plan- and foremost in this plan is the Bolting Plan.
Currently in Red Rock there is a complete bolting ban in the Wilderness Areas (more or less the canyons- the Calico Hills are not Wilderness for the most part). There are currently permits available for one to one bolt replacement (this is what the ASCA does out here)- but no power drilling is allowed, hand drilling only.
All of that said, the BLM has announced its scoping meetings- these are meetings in which the BLM will be soliciting public feedback on its Wilderness Management Plan. That is, the BLM wants to hear what you have to say! This is the point in the process where you should voice your opinion! Tell the BLM what you think the Bolting Plan should consist of!
At these meetings, the Las Vegas Climbers Liasion Council will also be present and will be sharing their ideas with the BLM. To read their proposal, go to the LVCLC Website. This plan has been formulated by the LVCLC by talking with the BLM, Friends of Red Rock, and of course meetings within the LVCLC. That said, they are encouraging every climber to contact the BLM and voice their personal opinion about the plan. The scoping meetings are the best place to do this, but there are alternative ways to contact the BLM if you cannot be in the area for the meetings.
If you've gotten this far and are wondering whether you should be involved, the answer is YES. This is not a local access issue for Red Rock! The BLM's final plan is likely to become the basis for many future management plans across the country in the coming years- this plan will set a precedent! Thats why it is so important that every climber get involved!
So, all of that said, here are the scoping meeting dates [all of the meetings will be the same, so you only need to attend one of them!]:
Meeting #1: May 18, Boy Scout Camp at Mountain Springs, 6:00pm to 8:00pm
Meeting #2: May 23, Blue Diamond (at the quonset hut), 6:00pm to 8:00pm
Meeting #3: May 30, BLM offices at 4701 N. Torrey Pines Drive (just north of Rancho) 6:00pm to 8:00pm
For those who cannot attend, you can contact the BLM via:
Email: lvwilderness@nv.blm.gov (if you do not receive a response to this email, James did not get it!)
Snail Mail:
James Sippel
BLM
4701 N Torrey Pines Drive
Las Vegas, NV, 89130-2301
Finally, if you have questions or concerns before the meetings, please feel free to contact the Las Vegas Climbers Liasion Council at info@lvclc.org.
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larryd
May 9, 2006, 2:10 PM
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This is important stuff. ...
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furbucket
May 18, 2006, 3:46 AM
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Where exactly is the Boy Scout Camp at Mountain Springs?
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larryd
May 18, 2006, 4:20 AM
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In reply to: Where exactly is the Boy Scout Camp at Mountain Springs?
Here's how to get there: Take Route 160 toward Pahrump. As the road climbs toward the pass at Mountain Springs, watch on the left for a sign indicating the BSA Camp. Turn left onto the dirt road and follow it for about a mile to the entrance of Spencer Kimball Scout Camp. Inside the camp there will be signs leading to the meeting at Keyser Center. See you there...
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 18, 2006, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: Currently in Red Rock there is a complete bolting ban in the Wilderness Areas
Why no Plan C, maintain the ban? Do climbers really need to bolt everything just for personal gratification? After all, Potter has just proven to land managers that climbers are a selfish user group that will violate rules as they please. Giving them a legal means to bolt a wilderness area will only add to problems, not reduce them.
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vegastradguy
May 18, 2006, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Currently in Red Rock there is a complete bolting ban in the Wilderness Areas Why no Plan C, maintain the ban? Do climbers really need to bolt everything just for personal gratification? After all, Potter has just proven to land managers that climbers are a selfish user group that will violate rules as they please. Giving them a legal means to bolt a wilderness area will only add to problems, not reduce them.
actually, the current ban isnt really doing anything to stop folks from bolting- folks are still out there bolting in the wilderness and doing it on popular routes. a new plan would encourage good relations between climbers and rangers and hopefully create a forum for them to discuss different things and make it less likely that random bolting on established routes is going to happen. of course it wont prevent all of it, but i'd like to think that an open forum would encourage folks to think about what they're planning and bring it to the forum before just going out and doing it like they would when it is illegal.
i'm also kind of suprised by this comment. i doubt anyone would tell you that bolting a new route is for personal gratification or a selfish thing-- personally, i'm only going to place a bolt when absolutely necessary to avoid death....although i'm sure others will approach it differently.
one more note- power drills will not be allowed no matter what the plan- the Wilderness Act prevents them no matter what the plan, so hand drilling is the order of the day. not sure there are that many folks still out there willing to put up a route like PoD by hand...
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 18, 2006, 7:16 PM
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In reply to: i'd like to think that an open forum would encourage folks to think about what they're planning and bring it to the forum before just going out and doing it like they would when it is illegal.
Well it's nice that there are still blind optimists in the world ;-) But people who already don't give a damn about wilderness aren't likely to start caring when there's more paperwork involved. So they'll still do their thing and hail their anti-establishement hero, Dean fvck-the-land-and-everyone-else Potter. Meanwhile, the few who care will also be adding more bolts and encouraging more wilderness traffic.
In reply to: i doubt anyone would tell you that bolting a new route is for personal gratification or a selfish thing
of course, nobody will admit it. But they'll happily spray about their latest route in magazines and guidebooks. Take away that "glory" and what's left? public service? not likely.
In reply to: -- personally, i'm only going to place a bolt when absolutely necessary to avoid death....although i'm sure others will approach it differently.
You already have the right to replace old bolts, so this is just about adding new routes. correct? Why must all wilderness be developed?
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vegastradguy
May 18, 2006, 8:48 PM
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[quote="roy_hinkley_jr"]In reply to: In reply to: -- personally, i'm only going to place a bolt when absolutely necessary to avoid death....although i'm sure others will approach it differently. You already have the right to replace old bolts, so this is just about adding new routes. correct? Why must all wilderness be developed?
well, mostly. there is also a small issue about upgrading existing rap stations with new bolts (as opposed to slung boulders, rotten trees, etc), or possibly adding a new bolt here and there to an existing route (with the FA permission and area consensus, of course)....
the goal is not to 'develop' wilderness with gridlines of bolts, instead its to allow those who are treading as lightly as possible in the wilderness they are enjoying to stay safe and sane when all other means escape them....
the real truth is that a bolting plan WILL be established, the ban is not likely to continue, so the goal is to get local and non-local climbers to voice their opinion so that the BLM doesnt create a plan on its own without our guidance.
that said....if you think the ban should stay...by all means, write to the above address and let the BLM know what you think. better to write to them at this point than spend hours online debating it with a guy who has his own opinion of the area he lives and climbs in.....
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lextalion
May 20, 2006, 4:01 PM
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I would like to see some bivying allowed with restriction on camp fires in Icebox Canyon so that if a person was working on routes in the back of the canyon he could stay there over night without harassment.
I would also prefer to be able to power bolt for a fee that is more than that of hand drilling.
Development will happen no matter what is imposed. Potter is proof of this. Besides what good is a wilderness area if man can't set foot on it. Respect for the land is one thing but total bans are of doing anything will not accomplish anything.
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cchildre
May 23, 2006, 1:18 PM
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Thanks for the notice!
Decent discussion here. My only observation here is that why should those who fail to abide by the bolting ban prevent law abiding climbers from putting in legitimately need bolts for safety and rap stations? A few bad apples can blow it for all of us. I hardly think that setting up a few essential bolts on a route, or installing a belay/rap station is going to cause an wave of additional climbers to wash into the area. Just some of my copper though. Thanks again vegastradguy!
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namaste
May 23, 2006, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: For those who cannot attend, you can contact the BLM via: Email: lvwilderness@nv.blm.gov Snail Mail: James Sippel BLM 4701 N Torrey Pines Drive Las Vegas, NV, 89130-2301 Finally, if you have questions or concerns before the meetings, please feel free to contact the Las Vegas Climbers Liasion Council at info@lvclc.org.
***Something VERY important*** (consider editing original post)
I talked with James Sippel for quite sometime and was told they have serious email problems and often dont get the messages sent.
To be sure your opinion and feedback is heard please send via snail mail to:
James Sippel
BLM
4701 N Torrey Pines Drive
Las Vegas, NV, 89130-2301
and also show your support by attending the meetings but letters have the MOST impact he commented.
They are also doing a Management Plan for Mt. Charleston area.
I will try to get vegastradguy the forms he sent me ASAP.
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vegastradguy
Jun 8, 2006, 4:07 AM
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alright folks, time is running out to get your feedback to the BLM on this- you have until June 30th to get them your opinions!
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fitzontherocks
Jun 8, 2006, 4:16 AM
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Not my crag, but thanks, vegastradguy for the heads up. You've obviously got your heart (and head) in the right place. People, before you start ragging on "the man," try the civil thing and sit down at a table with him. See eye to eye. Let him hear your rational, well-reasoned points. And not just spray sanctimonious crap on a website. Hope it goes well, vegas.
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vegastradguy
Jun 8, 2006, 4:27 AM
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The good news is that the BLM is both very receptive to the local climbers and not seeing many other folks opposing the climbers- this bodes well for us, i believe.
Also, remember that if you climb, this affects you. The BLM Managemetn Plan for Red Rock is going to be a template for future management plans nationwide, including NFS and NPS plans (the NFS is working with the BLM on the Red Rock plan)....so even if you dont have an opinion about Red Rock specifically, this is a chance to have your voice heard before this plan becomes the basis for all future climbing management plans!!
Speak up!!!!
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cchildre
Jun 8, 2006, 3:30 PM
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In my area. Hueco Tanks, which was once a free-for-all, got closed, and now we only have limited access. The Wichita Wildlife Refuge is another example, where the climbing was completely stopped and climbers had to fight to regain the access we have today. Everyone should know, any climbing closure in the country could potentiall set a precedent for us all so we are all obligated to help where we can. IMO, the bolting ethics that exist in the Wichitas are great. Being a wildlife Refuge first and foremost, bolts are a rare thing. This tradition is supported by the climbing community, which I think is key to any good plan.
Mailed my letter, and welcome whatever plan results from this meetings. Can't wait to get back out to Red Rocks!
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fitzontherocks
Jun 8, 2006, 4:03 PM
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Mailed my letter.
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climbsomething
Jul 3, 2006, 3:04 AM
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Any news?
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vegastradguy
Jul 3, 2006, 4:23 AM
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Not as of yet- the comment period before the intial draft of the plan just closed yesterday. According to the time frame i've seen, sometime in August, the BLM will release a schedule of meetings for comment on their proposed plan, and then sometime after that, the plan will be finalized based on those comment sessions.
I'll be sure to post up here and on the NV front page when I get the schedule for the next set of meetings as well as the contact info for those who cannot attend.
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