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chossmonkey
Aug 9, 2006, 3:58 AM
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There have been a number of people wanting the "full details" on the circumstances that lead up to granite_grrl's nasty fall. I thought I should start a new thread before Brent's thread gets hijacked and filled up with posts not pertaining to his OP.
I met with Colin and Brent about a week after the accident to try and see if we could clear up some of the questions hanging in my mind and everyone else's. We rapped down the route and Colin told us the best he could of what he saw happen.
We did get a better idea of how far she fell, though that is still even somewhat debatable. It seems like for everything we thought we figured out there were ten new questions that had no answer.
As of right now Rebecca has no recollection of what happened. Unless she ever does remember, we won't probably know much. We do know she was past the crux and run-out on easier ground. We are pretty certain there was no gear failure.
I feel that the lessons to be learned are the same ones we already know.
While sometimes there is one catastrophic fuck-up. There were multiple things that went together to make things go disastrous in this case. She was run out. There was a ledge below her. And she fell. Take away any one of the three and she would probably be fine. Falling should ALWAYS be part of the equation when estimating your margin of safety as it can go disastrous in a heart beat. She shouldn't have fallen. The section she came off of was well within' her abilities.
Climbing is dangerous, but so is life in general. I feel that she could have just as easily ran a stop sign or a red light and been broadsided by a semi on her way to the crag. You can't afford to let your guard down or be distracted even for a second.
If you can't properly protect a section so you will have a reasonably safe fall consider backing off. Otherwise cock the hammer and play the game, just don't be surprised when the gun goes off.
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dingus
Aug 9, 2006, 4:28 AM
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In reply to: She shouldn't have fallen. The section she came off of was well within' her abilities.
I did the same thing essentially, fell off a climb I'd done about 10 times. Hit a ledge after a long fall. In my case I shattered my ankle. It still isn't right but then again neither am I.
In reply to: Climbing is dangerous, but so is life in general. I feel that she could have just as easily ran a stop sign or a red light and been broadsided by a semi on her way to the crag.
Hah! I did that too, though it was ME running into the back of the van. Broke my friggin neck in that one. Ironically my neck healed faster than my ankle. Go figger.
In reply to: You can't afford to let your guard down or be distracted even for a second.
Unfortunately, you can. You can let your guard down all the time in this sport and a great deal of the time, nothing happens. But when it dows happen, oh shit.
In reply to: Otherwise c--- the hammer and play the game, just don't be surprised when the gun goes off.
I know in my case at least, I knew a fall was a good possibility. I'd gotten off route and climbed into a pickle. After friggin with it for a few minutes I deciced to go back to my pro. But just before I reversed the moves I thought I saw my out and without a full consideration, I went for it.
Didn't make it.
One thing all this recovery helped me understand is this... I'd imagined I couldn't or wouldn't do well without my weekly dosages of climbing. Sadly, that wasn't the case. Injured, I discovered I could do without climbing altogether. Time slipped by and week after week, I was still me and I was still not climbing. It was almost like being in an altered state. Correction, it WAS an altered state. A state of no climbing.
But I came home. I never even thought otherwise. Folks on the outside looking in my feel or imagine pity; poor fucker can't climb.
But on the inside it wasn't like that. Just doing a 2 mile hike up a well graded trail to Mono Pass was the 'route of the summer' and another route I'd once soloed was the most difficult roped climb I'd done in months.
It was all like climbing. The healing, the slow recovery, the minor victories, the watershed moments.
I wasn't a climber. I wasn't climbing. But I was a climber and I was climbing. Different routes, different problems, way different challenges.
As your friend heals and begins that slow road to recovery, try to remember that. That a 2 mile hike might feel like a major accomplishment. Me? I needed to do a LOT of that by myself. My ego demanded I suffer if not in silence then at least from view.
But my friends DID reach out to me. And they DID extend a helping hand back into the game.
4 months after breaking my neck I was jugging fixed ropes behind Brutus of Wyde and top roping 5.9 in route to completing a grade V first ascent. Now I didn't do much to contribute to upward progress, just BEING THERE with my mates, meant the world.
The world.
That's the only lesson I could possibly hope to offer.
DMT
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majid_sabet
Aug 9, 2006, 5:11 AM
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Every accident is unique and as important to know, but the most important part about an accident is to understand it and analyzing it so you could help and educate others to prevent the future accidents from happening and still there are no guarantees.
I hope she recovers from her injuries and as far as her report goes, I have an idea that what went wrong.
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fenix83
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Aug 18, 2006, 5:30 PM
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Dingus, great post, I wish I could rate today.
-F
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alexmac
Aug 18, 2006, 5:54 PM
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The question is, what did the belayer see, what was the conditions they expected and how run out was it.
I do not expect her to ever recover the memories of that time as short term memories are often lost in a serious accident; thus we may never know.
The only details we can collect I would see is from the belayer and from someone rapping down the cliff and going over every possible move and looking for broken off flakes of rock.
The really really good thing to come out of this is that she will recover regardless.
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chossmonkey
Aug 18, 2006, 8:14 PM
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In reply to: The question is, what did the belayer see, what was the conditions they expected and how run out was it.
The belayer couldn't actually see her when she fell, there was a large tree growing out of the cliff obscuring Rebecca.
As far as he knows nothing fell down with her. No rock. No gear.
She new she would face runouts and was confident in her abilities. For those unfamiliar with the route there are about 20' feet of climbing on chossy rock to the first gear.
I TRed the route once to see how it climbed and if there were any spots that seemed likely for her to fall off of. The easiest explanation is she just slipped. Why she slipped is anyone's guess.
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andypro
Aug 18, 2006, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: I have an idea that what went wrong.
I'm curious as to how exactly you have ANY idea as to what happened, when the people involved and the people close to them who went to the actual climb to figure it out don't know what happened?!?
As far as the accident...from what it sounds..she just plain ole slipped. I've done it before. Damn near bought it soloing a 5.4. A route I'd climbed dozens of times roped, and numerous times solo, even did it blindfolded once. I just slipped. Don't know how, or why. Caught myself thanks to the nice huge holds and easy terrain, but damn near pooped myself in the process. I didn't see it coming, I wasn't lax, I wasn't taking anything for granted, and I just slipped. It happens.
Sometimes it ends ok, sometimes it doesn't. No person, no shoe, no rock is infallible. Maybe with hypnotic regression she'd remember, but I don't know why anyone would bother. It's not a good moment in her life.
Really...everyone is so intent on finding out what happened, so others can learn from it. Just accept the fact that there were no mistakes, and shit happens. Murphy is a cruel mistress, and if anything at all that we take away form this, it should go to show that no matter how well and correct you do everything, stuff like this can still happen. It's not a foolproof sport, and that's it.
Edited for atrocious typing correction
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the_mitt
Aug 18, 2006, 11:24 PM
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Great Posts Dingus, and Andy wish I could rate today.
majid_sabet unless you know something, by being there or having investigated the accident then you know nothing (about the accident). Other than that I offer you a nice big cup of SFU. Man I am truely getting sick of your dark posts, your like an ambulance chaser. Its one thing to try and learn from accidents and totally another to be obsessed by them.
Sorry to hijack the thread /rant
Mitt
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tangen_foster
Aug 18, 2006, 11:46 PM
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Every time I fall, it happens for a reason. It just doesn't happen because "shit happens." If falling were a random event, a lot more die hard free soloists would be dead. If my foot slips, it slips for a reason. When it happens, figuring out why is critical to continuing as a climber. Jim
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findingit
Aug 19, 2006, 12:57 AM
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Ground Zero is the type of route that is never straight forward. I've climbed it multiple times, each time saying to myself "wtf did I do here last time?" Gear on it can be tricky (not uncommon around there) and there are spots that always felt awkward to me. It's my feeling that if Rebecca can't recall the moment, we'll never know, especially with the belayer being down on the trail and not up on the pseudo 2nd pitch ledge.
What I know for sure is that this route requires extra respect from the climber.
My hat is off to Rebecca, but my helmet is on :wink: .
Cheers,
Clint
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jaybro
Aug 19, 2006, 1:37 AM
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Guess that "shit" hasn't happened to you yet, TanJim, Keep climbing, driving, renting, being a landlord. taxpayer or anything and it will. The fact that there is always a reason is irrelevent; something will happen (and has happened, I know) to you that you took measures against. That's how it works.
It's still okay to learn from it.
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chossmonkey
Aug 19, 2006, 2:05 AM
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In reply to: If falling were a random event, a lot more die hard free soloists would be dead.
Derek Hershey
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darkside
Aug 19, 2006, 3:56 AM
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In reply to: Every time I fall, it happens for a reason. It just doesn't happen because "s--- happens." If falling were a random event, a lot more die hard free soloists would be dead. If my foot slips, it slips for a reason. When it happens, figuring out why is critical to continuing as a climber. Jim
n 1: a mishap; especially one causing injury or death 2: anything that happens by chance without an apparent cause
Now sure we can assume accidents may involve feet or hands slipping and that may be because we didn't make a proper foot placement, we moved body position without regard for changing foot position, the rock was greasy or more polished than expected, the insect we accidentaly stood on and squished made our shoe slick, or any number of possibilities. This in turn could be cause for a fall.
Unfortunately the cause of most accidents or falls is often a synergy of events. Maybe that should read fortunately because if we remove one of the events, the chain is broken and the accident is avoided. That's to say that a climbers foot slips, the climber is thrown off balance, the climber last placed protection significantly below, a ledge exists below the climber, the climbers handholds are too small to allow a secure grip. The result = the climber falls and hits a ledge. Now let's back up - remove any one of those factors and a ledge fall may not occur. Remove the ledge = clean fall. Gear just below climber = fall is reduced to above the ledge. Hand holds are huge jugs and climber maintains a secure hold = no fall.
Now my point about this is how many times have you been in similar situations thinking "phew - thank goodness I didn't let go" or "glad I had that piece there"? Sometimes we're not so lucky and shit happens.
While the above may sound rather like what may have happened to Rebecca, I didn't script it that way. I don't know what happened to her and may never know. I have climbed that route many times and can't begin to figure out what happened because only one person is aware and she doesn't remember. I scripted it based on stuations I recognize from experience time and again and from cliff to cliff to province to state to country.
The fact remains that other climbers can learn from this accident without knowing every intricate detail and below are some lessons to heed.
- Climbing within our abilities won't neccessarily keep us safe - just reduce the risks.
- Climbing with runouts (whether intentional or because of no pro) can result in longer falls with more danger of impacting features or ledges.
- Wearing a helmet regardless of the dangers of rockfall or lack thereof can help reduce injuries to the head in the event of an unexpected fall.
- Regardless of whether you are pulling the crux, or through it and on easier ground - do not let your guard down because things can still go wrong.
- Having someone around well versed in first aid can save lives. Even better, being trained in first aid yourself may enable you to reduce the severity of injuries by prompt actions or you may save someones life. That has to be a better accomplishment than any numbers on any climb.
- No matter who you know, how safe they may be, or what they are climbing - you could lose a friend at any time. Don't take your friendships for granted.
Take care out there and remember this, they say you can learn from your mistakes - BUT it's a lot less painful to learn from others mistakes.
:righton:
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chossmonkey
Aug 19, 2006, 4:41 AM
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Thanks Grant.
That was something like I wanted to post in response to tf's post, but I felt like I would just be echoing myself from my first post. I think you did a much better job than I would have or at least took more time than I would have, to explain "how shit happens".
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brent_e
Aug 19, 2006, 5:02 AM
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All good posts and I would like to say thanks to DMT, Grant, Andy, and Nate for their contributions. I'll also thank findingit for his help on the phone before we went to visit the climb.
I'll add nothing further about the fall as Nate has covered it. I will say i'm glad Rebecca doesn't remember. If she did she would have screwed up so much of the mental toughness that she's been building over the last while. It may still be hampered a bit, but hopefully not.
Best regards
Brent Elliott
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ptone
Aug 21, 2006, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: She shouldn't have fallen. The section she came off of was well within' her abilities. ...
It's been a long while since i was here...injury/recovery etc kept me from climbing and it hurt to dwell too much.
Slowly but surely i'm rebounding.
I wish Rebecca the quickest and smoothest recovery, and good energy twards her whole.
I'm writing cause thru all of this, and more often than naught in the past i see quotes like the one above--from climbers with tons of experience as well as beginners and grommits.
Tho i don't know the real numbers, it seems to me that more falls that end in injury or worse could come from climbers on routes well below their limit.
On a hard climb, it seems more likely one would be careful and attentive to detail: with a greater chance of a fall, it make sense to be more cautious about pro...
On an easier climb, where ther fall potential is expected to be little to none, climbers often run it out, or move fast with less attention to the moment.
just a thought!
gotta run
-peace, -p
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macherry
Aug 21, 2006, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: Every accident is unique and as important to know, but the most important part about an accident is to understand it and analyzing it so you could help and educate others to prevent the future accidents from happening and still there are no guarantees. I hope she recovers from her injuries and as far as her report goes, I have an idea that what went wrong.
unless you were there you have no more information than the OP. Everything else is speculation.
thanks choss for posting up what info you had on rebecca's fall.
good posts dingus and grant
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majid_sabet
Aug 22, 2006, 2:39 AM
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Even if I saw it face to face, I would not talk about here on RC .Com , as I mentioned, I have an idea of what may went wrong based on what I know from reading & dealing with 1000+ reports that comes to my attention a year but even then, nothing is for sure therfore we leave it to OP to talk about it.
Regards
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crimperqueen
Aug 22, 2006, 9:14 PM
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In reply to: Even if I saw it face to face, I would not talk about here on RC .Com , as I mentioned, I have an idea of what may went wrong based on what I know from reading & dealing with 1000+ reports that comes to my attention a year but even then, nothing is for sure therfore we leave it to OP to talk about it. Regards
For all you know, Rebecca could have been stung by a bee, stepped in slippery bird poo, or sneezed.
Unless Rebecca remembers, there is only speculation, even on the belayers part. All anyone can do now is put their positive energy into getting her better and back on the rock!
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the_mitt
Aug 22, 2006, 11:14 PM
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I could not have said it better crimperqueen. If I could rate today you would be getting a trophy. Although I would imagine that no matter what we say the self-appointed Internet accident investigator will still chase accidents and report everything but the facts.
Mitt
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granite_grrl
Aug 23, 2006, 1:26 AM
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In reply to: Another post by me from Rebecca.
In reply to: Even if I saw it face to face, I would not talk about here on RC .Com , as I mentioned, I have an idea of what may went wrong based on what I know from reading & dealing with 1000+ reports that comes to my attention a year but even then, nothing is for sure therfore we leave it to OP to talk about it.
Brilliant, would you like to share what exactly happened to me, because the rest of us here aren't sure and I can't remember. I figure I fell by pure bad luck (something spooked me, something bit me, or I just plain lost my balance?), and I fell so far because I hadn't placed pro for a while. I've been told that there wasn't much pro to be had, but perhaps I could have gotten something in. But I was on easy ground and probably confident (over-confident?) in my climbing there.
But seeing as I can't really remember anything about the day or the two weeks following there's no way we can confirm exactly what happened nor what state of mind I was in.
As for Nathan saying what should be easy/hard for me, he has climbed enough with me that he has a pretty darn good idea how I should be climbing something. Apparently I fell on the route where there were both really good hand and foot holds, and well past the 5.8 crux.
So everyone out there remember to do your double checks, and always think about what could possibly happen when you're leading a route. Before every leader racks up they should make a conscious decision to lead the route based upon their abilities, the protection possible, and the severity of a potential fall and also re-evaluate as they're climbing. Because you could always fall on that route you've done a million times before, or on a really easy section.
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chossmonkey
Aug 23, 2006, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: and I fell so far because I hadn't placed pro for a while. I've been told that there wasn't much pro to be had, but perhaps I could have gotten something in. But I was on easy ground and probably confident (over-confident?) in my climbing there.
In my opinion what gear there is has its own risks in acquiring.
It's all risk management. If you feel confident in what you are doing why risk a fall getting gear you don't feel you need?
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findingit
Aug 23, 2006, 1:47 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Another post by me from Rebecca. In reply to: Even if I saw it face to face, I would not talk about here on RC .Com , as I mentioned, I have an idea of what may went wrong based on what I know from reading & dealing with 1000+ reports that comes to my attention a year but even then, nothing is for sure therfore we leave it to OP to talk about it. Brilliant, would you like to share what exactly happened to me, because the rest of us here aren't sure and I can't remember.
Good to see you back Rebecca.
fack that guy cracks me up :o
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chossmonkey
Aug 23, 2006, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: I have an idea of what may went wrong.......
I do too.
SHE FELL!
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findingit
Aug 23, 2006, 1:56 AM
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In reply to: In my opinion what gear there is has its own risks in acquiring.
Pretty much sums up trad climbing in southern Ontario......
We do love it though.........don't we?
:?
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