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stevematthys
Oct 15, 2002, 11:07 PM
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I do a lot of trad in Eldorado Canyon, and I often see people that do not make their first piece multi-directional. So I guess my question is: Are people in Colorado to careless and lazy to make a multi-directional first piece, or is it that way everywhere?
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astone
Oct 15, 2002, 11:31 PM
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I am representing Boise, Idaho on the multidirectional tip.
I don't use the system described in a recent issue of Climbing though. I prefer a multidirectional pulley system. Totally sweet!
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petsfed
Oct 15, 2002, 11:49 PM
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Mostly we're lazy.
Actually, a lot of these climbers are confident that they won't fall, or they're using a vaguely multidirectional piece to begin with. That may mean that the second will have a devil of a time extracting that nut. Or they are trusting a cam to be multidirectional, which is a dubious practice at best. If I knew what routes you were talking about, it would help. For the Whale's Tale, or the first pitch of the Bastille crack, its straight up, so the multi directional is less an issue, assuming your belayer knows his or her business.
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kindredlion
Oct 15, 2002, 11:59 PM
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Petsfed is right...
The biggest and only constant rule in climbing is...
Everything is Situational
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jt512
Oct 16, 2002, 1:14 AM
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Quote:Or they are trusting a cam to be multidirectional, which is a dubious practice at best.
Since when?
Quote:
If I knew what routes you were talking about, it would help. For the Whale's Tale, or the first pitch of the Bastille crack, its straight up, so the multi directional is less an issue, assuming your belayer knows his or her business.
The direction the route takes above the first piece is irrelevant. The first piece should be multidirectional to prevent the pro from zippering from the bottom up in a fall. The belayer has nothing to do with this.
-Jay
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bretterick
Oct 16, 2002, 1:28 AM
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actually the belayer does have something to do with it, if the belayer is right by the rock its less likley to zipper cause there isnt as big of a pull in the opposite direction
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climbchick
Oct 16, 2002, 1:35 AM
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I thought the zipper effect was only an issue if the route meandered and/or the belayer was standing too far away from the base of the route? Is that not so?
Also, I do not think of cams as multi-directional, but I suppose they could be in a horizontal placement, is that what you meant, Jay?
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jt512
Oct 17, 2002, 6:48 PM
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Quote:if the belayer is right by the rock its less likley to zipper cause there isnt as big of a pull in the opposite direction
I've experimented and found that even when the belayer is positioned close to the wall, the first piece gets pulled upward when the rope is put under tension.
Quote:I do not think of cams as multi-directional, but I suppose they could be in a horizontal placement...
In a vertical placement, the cam will rotate and should still hold even with its stem pointing up. The placement has to be good, though. If the crack flares or is shallow, the cam might rotate into a position where it would not hold an upward pull.
-Jay
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elvislegs
Oct 17, 2002, 7:03 PM
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I rarely use just a cam for my first piece. I almost always use two equalized pieces with the 'true' first piece being an upward pull - placed piece. I see what you are saying J about the rotation in theory, but I don't really know if I would want to trust moving pro to hold.
Having said this I must also say that I am a comparatively inexperienced trad leader, I have NEVER fallen on gear, and I am NOT trying to give advice, but rather input.
-Sean
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wigglestick
Oct 17, 2002, 7:27 PM
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What happens is when the leader falls the rope wants to make as straight of a line as possible from the belayer to the leader.
So if you are standing at the base of a perfectly straight, vertical, Indian Creek splitter the first piece will not experience much of an outward pull yet if the route overhangs severely (Example) or jogs significantly to the left or right (think the roof on Calypso Steve) then the pro needs to be multi-directional.
And it is not only the first piece that needs to be multi-directional. People get hurt every year on Calypso because they fall after making that traverse under the roof and the pro is not set to take a sideways pull.
So just because the climber don't futz with a 3 piece multi-directional anchor for their first piece doesn't mean they are lazy or stupid. Maybe they know that because of the particular route they are climbing the first piece being multi-directional isn't much of an issue.
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lobito
Oct 26, 2002, 1:37 AM
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The previous posts were right - when the leader fall the rope tends to go in a straight line from the belayer to the last pro the leader placed. However, the direction of the pull on any piece is not necessarly towards this line. E.g.: the leader goes straight to the next belay station (A->B) and then moves right (B->C). During a fall, the force on B is to the right.
In general, given three consecutive pieces of pro (including belayer) A -> B -> C, the pull on B is towards the line AC (assuming the distance between pieces is much larger than the lengths of the runners used). So, supposing all pro stays put, the leader has to estimate where the next piece goes in order to make a placement "multidirectional" (i.e. to hold a fall on that piece and on following pieces). Does this make sense?
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coclimber26
Oct 26, 2002, 1:35 PM
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I usually try to make it multi directional if the angle to the belayer is more than 20 degrees or so. Usually if the belayer is near the same line I just plug a piece in...
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flamer
Oct 27, 2002, 10:38 PM
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The proper use of long runners can help reduce the chance your gear will zipper. Use them to keep the rope in as straight a line as possible, thus reducing the force of the pull. I believe the roof on Calypso was given as an example- If you place a peice under the roof put a runner on it long enough so that the biner attached to the rope clear the roof. Long fall possible when you consider the length of the runner- shorter if your gear doesn't pull! Keep in mind this is just another "tool" for your mental box different situations have different solutions
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apollodorus
Oct 28, 2002, 12:10 AM
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If you don't secure cams for multi-directional pulls, they can get fixed. A cam that's placed nearly all the way retracted and then yanked outwards by the rope will have the two inner cams hold while the other two get shoved hard into the crack. The same thing happens if the stem sticks straight out and takes a fall: the outer cams hold while the inner two get shoved up and back into the crack.
TIP: if the cams get shoved in tight in this manner, don't yank and hang on the trigger to try to free it. You might break the wires. You'll should manipulate the cams with a nut tool to get the thing out. Use an L-shaped tip to lever against the rock to rotate a cam while reversing the motion of the stem that caused the problem in the first place. Alternately work the two stuck cams while moving the stem up or down. In an expanding crack, try putting another cam in nearby and hanging on that.
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