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granite_grrl
Dec 7, 2007, 2:00 PM
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/...NStory/National/home
I've been hearing stuff on bisphenol A in the Canadian media for a couple of months now, and talk about it before that. From the number of climbers that use these bottles (incliuding myself) it seens that most people aren't too concerned about it. But it is notable to have MEC pull these bottles off their shelves.
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j_ung
Dec 7, 2007, 2:48 PM
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Does anybody here actually know someone who was injured, killed, sickened or otherwise molested by a Nalgene bottle? Or can anybody point to anything more than third-hand info from dubious sources that says it's gonna happen? I don't use much Nalgene anyway (because I lose it), so no big deal. Just curious.
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livinonasandbar
Dec 7, 2007, 3:07 PM
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j_ung wrote: Does anybody here actually know someone who was injured, killed, sickened or otherwise molested by a Nalgene bottle? Or can anybody point to anything more than third-hand info from dubious sources that says it's gonna happen? I don't use much Nalgene anyway (because I lose it), so no big deal. Just curious.
Might be a bit of a leap to say a company the size of MEC would deny itself the income from a best-selling product like Nalgene bottles based on "third-hand info from dubious sources"... don't you think? Or, don't you?
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valeberga
Dec 7, 2007, 3:19 PM
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Dude, it's a company, not the CPSC. It doesn't matter if there is really anything wrong with the product or not -- it simply comes down to whether they think that customers will buy them or not. Consumer perception trumps scientific evidence every time and in both directions. (Look at all of the die-hard CCH fans...)
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lena_chita
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Dec 7, 2007, 3:26 PM
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There is no question at all that Bisphenol A is an endocrine disruptor. A Pubmed search would give you over 4000 publications.
The more relevant question is whether water stored in Nalgene bottles actually contains amounts of Bisphenol A that would be high enough to have any significant effect.
And the judgement on THAT is far from clear. Won't ever get clear, if you ask me.
Just of the top of my head, the amount of bisphenol A that gets into the beverage would depend on how long the water sits in the bottle, at what temperature, whether it's water or some sort of more acidic sport drink, how scratched that Nalgene is (how much surface is exposed), how old it is (plastic deterioration over time), and probably a few other things that I'm not thinking of.
And then there is a separate issue of how often a person uses it, whether there are additional factors that make some people more sensitive to it than others, and so on and so forth.
So, has this all made me stop using Nalgenes? Nope.
Has it stopped me from buying polycarbonate baby bottles? Yep. (though the fact that I had free glass bottles available to me was as much of a factor in my decision not to buy those bottles for my babies as the Bisphenol A concern)
But reading this, from granite_grrl's link, made me curious:
In reply to: A spokesman for Nalgene's manufacturer, Nalge Nunc International Corp. of Rochester, N.Y., said it believes Mountain Equipment is the first major retailer in North America to pull its polycarbonate bottles based on health worries. “From our perspective, it's certainly unfortunate because we feel there is a body of evidence” supporting the safety of the product, Eric Hanson said. He added that the retailer's action won't affect all of its products because the company also markets containers that do not contain bisphenol A.
O.K., so if they DO have products that don't contain Bisphenol A, what are those products?
And yes, I have been contemplating getting a Kleen Canteen instead of a Nalgene when I do need to pick up another water bottle.
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camhead
Dec 7, 2007, 3:31 PM
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This just in: this nalgene was recently seen loitering around the base of Souter's Crack with a double bowline and several dimpled, microfractured biners.
climbers are advised to stay in their homes, and if approached by this nalgene, to cover their noses and mouths, shoot it, and burn the remains.
stay tuned for future updates.
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livinonasandbar
Dec 7, 2007, 3:32 PM
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Proactively pulling the Nalgenes will also help fend off potential punitive judgements down the road...
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climb_eng
Dec 7, 2007, 3:46 PM
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Except it's Canada so it doesn't matter nearly as much. And MEC isn't a company; it's a co-op. Likely they pulled the bottles because a vocal minority of members complained.
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chilli
Dec 7, 2007, 3:48 PM
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very nicelay stated, lena chita. while much research has been done, there really aren't any conclusive results on the level of contamination of food/drink products stored in many of the plastic containers with chemicals like bisphenol A, to enhance whatever quallity they may be looking for in the plastic. in the case of nalgene, it's really only the polycarbonate bottles that contain bisphenol A to help harden the plastic. the other, older, 'foggy' nalgene bottles don't contain bisphenol A, if you're really worrried about it. but gues what... like most plastics even that older style nalgene has another potential toxin (i don't remmber which on in that case), but once again, the level of contamination and effects are under dispute/discussion. likewise camel pack dramadaries contain another chemical for flexibility (i'll try to remember the names of the chemicals). if you're overly concerned about plastic, there's always glass... i've heard that's safe around rocks
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ja1484
Dec 7, 2007, 4:15 PM
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j_ung wrote: or otherwise molested by a Nalgene bottle?
IT TOUCHED MY SPECIAL PLACE!
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shockabuku
Dec 7, 2007, 4:49 PM
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ja1484 wrote: j_ung wrote: or otherwise molested by a Nalgene bottle? IT TOUCHED MY SPECIAL PLACE!
Lucky you!
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angry
Dec 7, 2007, 4:55 PM
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camhead wrote: This just in: this nalgene was recently seen loitering around the base of Souter's Crack with a double bowline and several dimpled, microfractured biners. climbers are advised to stay in their homes, and if approached by this nalgene, to cover their noses and mouths, shoot it, and burn the remains. stay tuned for future updates.
The Nalgene in question has been most recently spotted somewhere in my garage. Since this photograph it has tried to conceal it's identity by switching to a black cap.
This Nalgene is most easily identified by the stench of it's owner. Alert the proper authorities if you feel you've had a run in.
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maldaly
Dec 7, 2007, 5:03 PM
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It's nice that some companies are finally waking up to the dangers of bisphenol-A. There have been studies on-golng for decades (BPA was invented in the late 1800 as a synthetic estrogen) and only recently have those tests been conducted at hormone dose levels rather than poison dose levels. Poison dose test assume that if a little is bad, more is worse. That's not the way hormones work. Vanishingly small doses over long periods is the way hormones work and when BPS is tested this way it's generally found harmful. http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/NewScience/lowdose/2007/2007-0525nmdrc.html
Here's a quote from and article recently conducted by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:
"In the first analysis of its kind by a newspaper, the Journal Sentinel reviewed 258 scientific studies of the chemical bisphenol A, a compound detected in the urine of 93% of Americans recently tested. An overwhelming majority of these studies show that the chemical is harmful - causing breast cancer, testicular cancer, diabetes, hyperactivity, obesity, low sperm counts, miscarriage and a host of other reproductive failures in laboratory animals.
Studies paid for by the chemical industry are much less likely to find damaging effects or disease."
Hmmmm. I can't believe the chemical industry would skew the tests on a product they made...
You can read the complete article here: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=692145
I quit drinking out of Nalgene a few years ago--switched to Sigg--and am enjoying the taste of water once again. I also don't buy meat that's packaged in styrofoam trays, don't get take-out in styrofoam containers and don't drink out of styrofoam cups.
There is also a lot of great info here: http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/
Climb safe,
Mal
(This post was edited by maldaly on Dec 7, 2007, 5:10 PM)
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armsrforclimbing
Dec 7, 2007, 5:07 PM
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Look everyone, its Science, and you cant argue with that.
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coastal_climber
Dec 7, 2007, 6:19 PM
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I think they are waiting for something from Health Canada, also for their white gas canisters too.
>Cam
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altelis
Dec 7, 2007, 7:03 PM
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i'm really sorry i can't remember the article, BUT i looked into this a little while ago and here are the main points:
1)the chemical is most CERTAINLY dangerous\
2) the whole mess came about in a lab that was studying fish. they kept the fish in tanks made from nalgene (or something similar, don't remember if it was trademark or no...). a new lab tech was charged with cleaning the tanks. they cleaned a tank with some pretty corrosive detergents before being rebuked. one tank cleaned with a strong detergent, the others cleaned without. the fish in the tank cleaned with the detergent were all f*&*ked up while the "controls" were fine. person in the lab goes "ah ha!" and proceeds to do more research. turns out the chemical is only really let out after a cleaning with strong detergents. at the time of the publishing of the article the results were not reproducable by any other means.
3)i have yet to read (which most certainly doesn't mean they don't exist) any scholarly articles published in reputable peer-reviewed journals anything to the contrary, about the dangers of nalgene products NOT cleaned with strong detergents-----not to say i don't believe you mal, its just i tend to be doubtful of "2ndary research"; unless its been peer-reviewed and published in a reputable journal i don't take it as fact, and even then you need to be aware of the very specific confines to which the testing is apllicable-------
4) this only apears to affect the lexan bottles, the polyethelene bottles have been known for a while to have all sorts of other problems
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saphius
Dec 7, 2007, 7:17 PM
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I use Nalgene lexon bottles as my "go-to" container for water. I have two in my dorm room and drink from them daily. My roomie and I don't really use cups, instead we fill our Nalgenes.
Plus, it's easy to grab one and bring it to the crag or on a trip. No hassle, no dents, light weight.
I always knew there was controversy over the material they're manufactured from. Now, though, I'm a bit more concerned.
Looks like I'll be replacing them with HDPE... until I find out that HDPE causes cancer, too.
(This post was edited by saphius on Dec 7, 2007, 7:18 PM)
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Valarc
Dec 7, 2007, 7:23 PM
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altelis wrote: i 4) this only apears to affect the lexan bottles, the polyethelene bottles have been known for a while to have all sorts of other problems
What are the known problems with the HDPE bottles? I've googled and the only time I even find them mentioned is as an alternative to lexan bottles.
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docjacen
Dec 7, 2007, 7:41 PM
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saphius wrote: I use Nalgene lexon bottles as my "go-to" container for water. I have two in my dorm room and drink from them daily. My roomie and I don't really use cups, instead we fill our Nalgenes. Plus, it's easy to grab one and bring it to the crag or on a trip. No hassle, no dents, light weight. I always knew there was controversy over the material they're manufactured from. Now, though, I'm a bit more concerned. Looks like I'll be replacing them with HDPE... until I find out that HDPE causes cancer, too.
The problem is that no one actually KNOWS what causes cancer. Basically, anything that can be shown to be harmful in the least can be labled a carcinogen. LIFE CAUSES CANCER! omg, I am sooo done with life!
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billcoe_
Dec 7, 2007, 7:49 PM
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You can laugh all you want. I personally do not know anyone who was F*ed up by lead either, but I understand from the science that it is harmful.
I switched to the heavier Stainless steel Kleen Kanteens for running around town, for climbing longer routes where weight matters: I'll still use Nalegene.
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Aequitas
Dec 7, 2007, 8:03 PM
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Are the nalgene bottles made of polycarbonate the ones in question?
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lena_chita
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Dec 7, 2007, 8:04 PM
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Valarc wrote: altelis wrote: i 4) this only apears to affect the lexan bottles, the polyethelene bottles have been known for a while to have all sorts of other problems What are the known problems with the HDPE bottles? I've googled and the only time I even find them mentioned is as an alternative to lexan bottles.
If you buy milk or water in plastic bottles (those big gallon jugs), you've seen/used HDPE bottles. I do not know of any big controversy with HDPE bottles, unlike lexan/Bisphenol A. But HDPE is softer and not as durable. it is also not as transparent as lexan-- so those clear bright Nalgene colors won't be there. And IMO it gets the yucky plastic-y taste with repeated use more than lexan does.
I personally won't replace Nalgene bottle with HDPE bottle. Might as well just bring botled water jugs to the crag and refill them a few times, but you won't get much reuse out of them, IMO.
Now, Kleen Canteen seems like a much more attractive idea to me (but expensive... and the idea of a stanless steel water bottle seems... well, just way over the top) Still, I've had my thermos for 12 years, and I probably would have it for 12 more years, so stainless steel bottle might not be so outrageous if we are talking about using it forever.
maldaly, I'm curious: aren't you concerned about aluminum in Sigg bottles? And they are lined with some sort of plastic on the inside, are they not? Do they dent easily? My kids have been lobbying for Sigg bottles for a while-- every time they see them, they want them (but out of sight-out of mind still works). Can't blame them, they do look neat...
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saphius
Dec 7, 2007, 8:13 PM
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My climbing partner has a Sigg. They get dented :( I believe they're lined with an enamel or something for taste/acidity/whatever.
They do look damn cool, though.
If it weren't for the dents, I'd pick up one or two.
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dr_feelgood
Dec 7, 2007, 9:50 PM
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j_ung wrote: Does anybody here actually know someone who was injured, killed, sickened or otherwise molested by a Nalgene bottle? Or can anybody point to anything more than third-hand info from dubious sources that says it's gonna happen? I don't use much Nalgene anyway (because I lose it), so no big deal. Just curious.
My dad beat me with a nalgene when i was a kid. Now i only use a camelback.
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