|
shortfatoldguy
Nov 9, 2002, 1:25 AM
Post #1 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2002
Posts: 1694
|
Been leading for about a year and a half, a little sport but mostly trad, up to 5.8.
So how do you cope with protecting laybacks? Clearly, every one is a bit different, but are there fundamental principles? The few that I've done I've mostly scampered up as quickly as possible without fiddling with too much pro. But that's not an option on more sustained pitches. So what's the SOP?
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Nov 9, 2002, 1:31 AM
Post #2 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
Generally, look for some feet - be they in the crack, or on the face (or in a dihedral, on both faces). Stemming is a good way to do it. Say you're liebacking and you find a good footjam sized pod or good face foot, you could gaston with your inside hand and put your inside foot in the crack and then try to pull yourself in a little to look into the crack to place gear, but a stem would be a better option. Or if there's a nice hand or finger jam you can hang it and spin your body around in front of the crack to see into it to place gear.
Granted, these aren't always options. Sometimes you place gear by feel. When doing this, try to place gear generously 'cause you can't be certain of each piece!
josh
|
|
|
|
|
tanner
Nov 9, 2002, 1:38 AM
Post #3 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2002
Posts: 491
|
I go by feel of the crack and then Just fire a cam in and hope i don't fall
|
|
|
|
|
jmlangford
Nov 9, 2002, 1:53 AM
Post #4 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 2, 2001
Posts: 1569
|
Protect liebacks? Who needs protection on liebacks?
|
|
|
|
|
phylp
Nov 9, 2002, 2:45 AM
Post #5 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2001
Posts: 175
|
I never place gear in liebacks by "feel". I try to make sure my feet are set very well and then I rock in, eyeball the crack to make a guess at the pro, relax back into the lieback position, get the gear ready in that position, pull back in and place (hopefully right on the size on the first try), relax back out, get the rope up, rock back in and clip. Sounds like a lot when you write it but it goes fast with practice. The skill that help best with this is having your "crack eye" working really well, so you choose the right piece first try and don't have to fiddle.
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Nov 10, 2002, 2:26 AM
Post #6 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
Try placing gear at about waist level, instead of above you. It's easier!
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Nov 10, 2002, 3:13 AM
Post #7 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
Stick cams that are only 1/4 to 1/2 retracted. You're sticking them with the stems/cables standing straight out, right? That way, if you fall on them and they rotate, they don't get fixed.
You can also commit to the pitch, and run it out. Hopefully, you'll find the rests mentioned above and can stick pro.
|
|
|
|
|
stevematthys
Nov 10, 2002, 5:58 PM
Post #8 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 13, 2000
Posts: 1248
|
i was under the impression that you always want to place a cam so that the stem is facing in the direction of a fall.......
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Nov 10, 2002, 8:42 PM
Post #9 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
Sometimes you just have to go for it and trust your pieces. Place a cam blindly, give it as much of a tug test as you can, and then go for it.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=ListPhoto&PhotoID=6784
|
|
|
|
|
micronut
Nov 11, 2002, 4:28 AM
Post #10 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 1760
|
These guys said it all, pay close attention to and get feet, go by feel,(then eye when you can), place low, asses the fall and gear, and go. Those are my four tricks.
A classic lieback where I had to "feel " gear, EL CAMINO REAL, Taquitz
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Nov 12, 2002, 4:50 PM
Post #11 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
It is easiest to hang on a jam to get gear in. This isn't always practical, but it puts you right in front of the crack to put in good gear. Also, plan ahead.
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Nov 12, 2002, 5:28 PM
Post #12 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
El Camino is a decent "place by feel" kinda of crack. But it's got insanely bomber gear and it's easy to place by feel then lean over and take a quick peak to make sure. There are also some stances on it - probably 1/2 my placements on it were from good stances. Did you find any no hands stems in the middle of the pitch? I did
Re: Coyne. Nice lead camhead! Definitely a more reasonable "place by feel" given it's uniformity. A friend of mine just redpointed it (way too hard for me, I'm stoked with 11-, it'll be a LONG time till 12- trad starts happening) and managed the whole thing jamming straight in, fwiw. But he's just really into that as well
josh
|
|
|
|
|
murf
Nov 12, 2002, 6:43 PM
Post #13 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 1150
|
Re:Re: Coyne - the protect by feel ( if you do it that way ) section is so close to the ground that the belayer can give you a complete heads up on the piece(s). That parts just powerful, the offset #1 Camelot section ...shudder.
Murf
[ This Message was edited by: murf on 2002-11-12 10:44 ]
|
|
|
|
|
coclimber26
Nov 24, 2002, 7:20 PM
Post #14 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2002
Posts: 928
|
My first trad layback was reggae at eldorado. I placed some pro before the flake then stated walking up it..Half way up i felt the need for pro so I plugged a cam in...My one arm got so pumped from placing the cam that if the route was any longer I would have fallen...I need to practice placing pro aswell..
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Nov 25, 2002, 4:52 PM
Post #15 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
Wow, it would really help you guys to learn some good crack jamming technique.
Both Coyne Crack and Reggae are easy to jam and hang in front of the crack and place pro. Coyne is fingers at the start then ring locks. Reggae is ring locks/ big fingers. It might be most efficient to move up with a little layback technique, but it is easy to jam and relax while you place pro. On a jam you rely more on you skeletal structure to hold you up which is easier than to rely on your muscles because you will pump out constantly flexing to hold your self up.
|
|
|
|
|
murf
Nov 25, 2002, 5:09 PM
Post #16 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 1150
|
Monkey,
It would really help for you to learn that IC crack climbing is about more than just "technique".. size matters.
Murf
|
|
|
|
|
mountainmonkey
Nov 25, 2002, 6:20 PM
Post #17 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2002
Posts: 474
|
Ahh yes. IC is one of the few places where I will fully admit that size does matter.
When I am there, I work on the sizes that I am not good at: thin hands, ring locks/finger stacking, big hands/fists ....
The point I was trying to make is that you can jam on all the sizes with good technique.
I have big hands. Coyne Crack is hard for me because it is so thin - I get the first good hand jam just below the anchors - this is also why I like it. I jam the whole thing and use a slight layback to move up then I jam to rest or place gear. I also wear a loose pair of Mythos to sink my pinky toes into the crack.
I consider IC of more a practice place than a fun craggin place - however I love it because I do have so much fun there - go figure. I work on my bad sizes, no my good ones. There is no better place than Indian Creek to learn good jamming technique for ALL sizes.
|
|
|
|
|
murf
Nov 25, 2002, 6:44 PM
Post #18 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 15, 2002
Posts: 1150
|
MM - fair enough, I agree that jamming CC is the way you can do it if you can. I still shudder at the offset #1 Camelots ( not just small but offset! ).
In any case, CC is a lousy example of protecting layback, because as I mentioned before, your belayer can see the pieces. Also, its not like the placements vary.
Murf
|
|
|
|
|
texplorer
Nov 26, 2002, 8:42 PM
Post #19 of 19
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2002
Posts: 199
|
Some posters have been advising you to just climb and plug while liebacking. I did this last spring at Indian creek and took a nice ride when one of my pieces popped.
My recommendation is to learn to crack climb. Not to be insolent but liebacking is how sport climbers climb cracks. If you learn to jam cracks you'll always be able to see those placements better and be able to climb a wider variety of climbs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
