|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 2:27 PM
Post #1 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
I'm planning to go back (don't know when I'll get the chance ) and would like to climb Ha Long Bay.
[ This Message was edited by: data118 on 2002-11-29 10:55 ]
|
|
|
|
|
one900johnnyk
Nov 29, 2002, 3:36 PM
Post #2 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2381
|
that is exactly what i want to do. word on the street is that you can live in a little hut for cheap as anything... i could definitely see just saving up some bread and heading out there to climb until money runs out or it doesn't suit me any more. maybe we will run into each other someday. halong bay is my destination of choice too. my vietnamese friend said americans no longer get s--- on in n. vietnam so it is high on my list. good luck
|
|
|
|
|
climb512
Nov 29, 2002, 3:45 PM
Post #3 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2001
Posts: 468
|
Are there not enough places in the "free world" to climb? Is it really worth climbing and supporting a country that to this day still hasnt released all the bodies/remains of over 3000 MIAs? It wasnt my war or my generation, but had family who both fought and died there. It is bad enough that our government is normalizing relations with this country.Let alone people going there for tourism. Support those who fought and died for our freedoms,even the one to climb there. Dont be a Jane Fonda, climb elsewhere.
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 3:47 PM
Post #4 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
I'm originally from Vietnam, and I can definitely say that a few dollars can go a long way!
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 4:05 PM
Post #5 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
My sympathies to your family and friends.
Climb512, get the F*ck over it. Are there MIAs in VN, maybe. Is the VN gov't keeping US soldier's remains in some top secret location, hell no. For what!? They're buried in the jungles along with thousands of VN soldiers and CIVILIANS. You don't want me to f**king bring up the atrocites committed against civilians (women, children, and elders). Agent Orange, that s--- is now in soil affecting hundreds of future generations.
Don't get me wrong, I think the USA is by far the best country, and I love it as much as any red-blooded American that can trace their roots back to the colonies.
Tell me Climb512, how is sending troops to a small poor third world country protecting your freedom? You should look and critize our own gov't and people for the treatment, or lack thereof, of VN vets. Is that how we honor "those who fought for our freedom."
[ This Message was edited by: data118 on 2002-11-29 08:27 ]
|
|
|
|
|
climb512
Nov 29, 2002, 4:38 PM
Post #6 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2001
Posts: 468
|
Ok, you are not to nieve are you? They teach you how to speak without the the f word when you left your beloved country? If it is so great..why are you here?
I have a vietnemese person working for me, he is in the photo on top of the US embassy in 1973, he was in the last chopper out with his family. He can not go back to vietnam to this day. His father was a clerk in the embassy, he was advised by the state department that he will be jailed upon his return or worse.
Sounds llike a great country...yep, wish I could go climb there!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 5:26 PM
Post #7 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
F*ck you Climb512. First off I never said VN was so great. I said the US was a great country. Didn't they teach you how to read English in your grammar school? Please, lets not get into who you know 2nd hand. I HAVE family members who are unable to go back! But then what do you expect, people like the person you know and my family members were and still oppositions against the communists gov't. Like I said communism sucks. But I'm not going to keep a grudge and take it out on the people there. Climb512 you are f*cking ignorant and stupid. Please, don't give me that bullcrap that you know someone, blah, blah, blah. You have no idea, even if someone told you, of what me and my family, and thousands of others have gone through.
Do you and I love this country (US), even if our gov't f*cks up over and over? Yes, just like I love VN even if the gov't is sh1T.
Vn: the people, culture, language, food, land, is great, and its history and struggles for independence for much of it's existence is inspiring. Don't be an ignorant b1tch like Climb512 and miss out. Ultimately, tourism suports the everday people, even if the gov't takes a huge chunk out of it. Don't be a close minded F*CK FACE like Climb512 or else you'll end up going no where because, you don't like this country's gov't or that country's policies. With that warp thinking, people against death penalties, or against anything for that matter should not visit a US state and support it's local gov't because you are against it.
Again, F*CK YOU, Climb512!
[ This Message was edited by: data118 on 2002-11-29 09:50 ]
[ This Message was edited by: data118 on 2002-11-29 09:52 ]
|
|
|
|
|
missedyno
Nov 29, 2002, 6:08 PM
Post #8 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2001
Posts: 4465
|
i'm surprised there are still places to climb in vietnam, thought the states blew that country up....
unless you were thinking about climbing out of some of the craters left there....
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 6:26 PM
Post #9 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
That wasn't funny, Crazylike... In fact, that was a pretty insensitive comment!
And yes there is climbing there. Lynn Hill and others were there in '96.
http://www.toddskinner.com/...thumbnails/Nam07.jpg
More Pics
[ This Message was edited by: data118 on 2002-11-29 10:59 ]
|
|
|
|
|
meataxe
Nov 29, 2002, 6:34 PM
Post #10 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 1162
|
Rock don't know politics.
Be the rock.
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 6:38 PM
Post #11 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
That's true! That's one more thing to like about climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
lilred
Nov 29, 2002, 6:39 PM
Post #12 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2002
Posts: 1100
|
A few people here need to CHILL THE f--- OUT and kiss and make up eh?
SHEEESH!
|
|
|
|
|
missedyno
Nov 29, 2002, 6:43 PM
Post #13 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2001
Posts: 4465
|
*i'm* insensitive? jeeebus, it's your flame thread, pick a side.
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 6:45 PM
Post #14 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
Well, Climb512 touched on a very sensitive and personal subject for me, one that he knows very little about.
Sorry for all the cussing. I'll try to keep it G-rated.
|
|
|
|
|
moey
Nov 29, 2002, 6:49 PM
Post #15 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 61
|
Climb 512: you look naive if you can't spell naive.
|
|
|
|
|
missedyno
Nov 29, 2002, 6:49 PM
Post #16 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2001
Posts: 4465
|
yes yes he did. you asked about climbing, he answered with politics.
and i made a bad joke. i do that. i strive to take a neutral stand, but i tend to tease at american history for their political bullying. i keep forgetting that vietnam is still fresh in the minds of many, and still a sensitive topic.
|
|
|
|
|
evan
Nov 29, 2002, 7:01 PM
Post #17 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 32
|
Anyhoo, back on topic here...
Data118, I'm going to Saigon next year in October or November. I'll be there for a month, perhaps more. I was wondering where I could get some topos, or any guidebooks of any routes that have been put up in the country.
Thanks Bro,
Evan
|
|
|
|
|
one900johnnyk
Nov 29, 2002, 7:06 PM
Post #18 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2381
|
data: what are you planning on doing when you get there exactly, i mean besides climbing and did you ahve a rough estimate of when you might take off??
|
|
|
|
|
climb512
Nov 29, 2002, 7:11 PM
Post #19 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2001
Posts: 468
|
Sorry for the mis-spelled word, I was trying to keep data118 from looking like the total monkeys' ass that he truly is.
I do know personally what 'nam is/was like. having 2 uncles that fought there and one died there.
So, data, lick my balls, maybe if the free people of vietnam had actully fought, they may still be free.
You have heard all the sayings"when you hear the sound of pitter-patter its ARVN in full retreat", or how about " got some ARVN rifles for sale, never fired and only dropped once."
Perhaps if your family had balls and stayed to fight, people like my uncle and 50,000 others may not have died.
Who's the ignorant one????
Grow up, at least we know that you can say f--- repeatedly.
I did respond to the climbing subject, my point is, cant you find anywhere else in the world to climb. Why support a communist dictatorship. Climb in Taiwan,Mexico any of those other countries can be done cheap, with great climbing.
Thats when data got his panties in a bunch.
[ This Message was edited by: climb512 on 2002-11-29 11:15 ]
[ This Message was edited by: climb512 on 2002-11-29 11:15 ]
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 7:13 PM
Post #20 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
Yes, alright back to why I originally posted this topic.
Evan, I don't know of any topos. I ran a search on Google and could only come up with the link of Lynn Hill climbing there, and a few discussions on another climbing message board. I think our best bet is to find people who have climbed there for beta.
Ha Long Bay is the only area I know of. It's a bolted limestone route, and by the looks of it, on some of the routes, the belayer is belaying on a little boat.
Hey, maybe I'll se you there. Mind giving me a belay?
|
|
|
|
|
climbingjunky
Nov 29, 2002, 7:15 PM
Post #21 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 407
|
Well I'm from Canada, and I don't really give a crap about the American/Vietnam post war relationship. Why the hell should I?, all this war crap happend way before my time. My girlfriend is from Vietnam and she and her family go visit every year. The pictures I've seen there are beautiful. The food is great, the culture is unique, the climbing is spectacular-i can't wait to go. If you can't go there, climb somewhere else like in Thailand, that place is like paradise. (Just don't vandalize anything, i heard those canes really hurt )
|
|
|
|
|
data118
Nov 29, 2002, 7:30 PM
Post #22 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 4, 2002
Posts: 845
|
Is buying a souvenir from a kid or home cook food from an old woman for $1 "supporting a communist dictatorship?" The war was messed up on ALL different sides. It's too complicated and deep to go into on a BB. Climb512, your priorities are all scewy, you should really look into how our gov't treats it's veterans instead of pointing and redirecting the blame somewhere else.
Anyway, lets hope we never run into each other at the Gunks. Take that however you want to.
|
|
|
|
|
gunkjunkie
Nov 29, 2002, 7:48 PM
Post #23 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2001
Posts: 153
|
Climbs 5.12 -
I sympathize with you and believe that your uncles should never have had to go through the hell that is war. However, I think that you should try to understand the position in which the South Vietnamese found themselves - a courrupt and not very friendly government which was being backed up by the US on one side and the Northern Vietnamese on the other. Their homes were being invaded, villages destroyed and family members being killed. They were being herded into internment camps. Do you remember the Mai Lai Massacre? More US bombs were dropped on S. Vietnam than on N. Vietnam. Can you possibly see why they were less than zealous in their support of the US?
Perhaps you should go read the history books and see who can really be blamed for loss of American lives. Look at the actions of our leaders, including the false Gulf of Tonkin Incident that led the Congress to allow Pres. Johnson to wage war on Vietnam. Why not cast blame on Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon - because of some behind the scenes doublecrossing on the part of Kissinger (who was privy to the accords) and the Nixon camp - the peace accords which would have been signed in 1968 were scrapped when Kissinger and Nixon asked Hu (I'm not sure if this is spelled correctly) the leader of S. Vietnam to hold up the negotiations. Thus, the war continued needlessly until the 1972 peace accords and finally ended in 1975. All of this so that Nixon wouldn't loose a campaign issue and Kissinger could obtain a high position within the Nixon White House. For information on the above - read The Trials of Henry Kissinger by Christopher Hitchens.
Deirdre
|
|
|
|
|
missedyno
Nov 29, 2002, 8:29 PM
Post #24 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2001
Posts: 4465
|
*applause for gunkjunkie*
|
|
|
|
|
climb512
Nov 29, 2002, 11:02 PM
Post #25 of 44
(5895 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2001
Posts: 468
|
Gunkjunkie- I understand what happened in nam, I am well read and have spent countless hours of research on the subject. I blame only our government on the war,the loss and the current politics today. As stated before my point was, that why climb there, why support the current form of government.
martin, if you truly believe that paying someone there 1$ for anything is not supporting the way of life then you are truly the idiot that you make yourself out to be.
I am in the gunks 3-4 weekends a month, i have a preserve pass with my name on it. I am 6'3 200 pounds,dark hair, always wear a Paul Smiths College Hockey hat. So I am easily identifiable. If you wont turn and run, I'll be happy to talk to you in person. If you can talk like a civilized human being. You obiviosly have a lot issues to deal with and insecurities, that is probably why you feel the need to threaten and use the f--- word when arguing.
Have fun climbing in Vietnam, or where ever you climb, I know it is a beautiful country and the people a great, as most people are in this world.
I'll look for you in the gunks. Until then it is ice season, so chill till then.
The first rule of intelectual discusion is argument and agreeing that it is ok to disagree.
Image deleted by me, because diedra was offended by a historical pulitzer prize winning photo. we dont want to offend her.
[ This Message was edited by: climb512 on 2002-11-29 15:53 ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
