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enigma
Mar 25, 2003, 7:57 AM
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Hey its a tough road, and its not always paved, or supported, and we're scared sometimes,but.... why aren't we leading outdoors more??
hmmn,just interested in your thoughts??
For me I think its a combination of factors,including ;my own anxiety, not having consistent partners who support leading,and the fact most of my partners would (rather would lead harder climbs ,that I could follow) than (follow easier climbs that I could lead.)
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katydid
Mar 25, 2003, 12:08 PM
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Interesting. We've had a "do you like to lead" topic, but never a "why DON'T you lead" topic.
I'm "on the verge" of leading. I had a couple of opportunities at the NRP gathering, but in one case I chose the wrong pitch of a 2-pitch sport climb, took one look at it, and realized I was going to have major problems with the crux; so I backed off and gave the second pitch to my partner, who had just led the first. And I could have SAILED up the first pitch. Whoops.
The other opportunity slipped through my fingers (my first trad lead and an FA if I sent it clean; damn) when there were access problems to the area where we (me and a significantly more experienced partner) were planning to go.
No doubt, however, that I will lead this summer, on rock. Leading on ice is a different proposition altogether (watch -- I'll change my mind about THAT next winter)...
Sounds like you need to find a different partner if you're looking for someone to teach you about anchors, gear placements, and whatnot. Or have you thought about trying sport first? The learning curve's a lot less steep for sport, and it's a lot cheaper as well.
k.
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ecocliffchick
Mar 25, 2003, 3:37 PM
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Why don't I lead? . . . my partner asks me that all the time! I guess I'm just a big chicken and I don't want to get hurt. I have this feeling that as soon as I let go to clip, my other hand will release and I'll fall with a huge arm-load of slack out. Maybe my fears stem from a couple of early and pretty bad lead falls my in my first season.
I guess I haven't been forced to lead - as my partner is constantly putting up climbs and doesn't mind when I just second and take off the draws. So why would I? I'm not into the sport for the scary thrills, it's more of an intellectual problem solving challenge. I enjoy the gymnastic flow of climbing, which is why I stick to sport climbs, rather than the technical aspect of placing gear. I know there is a negative stigma attached to the "top-rope princess" aspect of climbing girlfriends, but if my partner and I don't have a problem with it, no one else should.
Rant aside, I always have the goal of leading!
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mwbtle
Mar 25, 2003, 4:38 PM
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Well, because I'm still such a newbie. I've never considered just sticking to top roping, so I'm sure I'll get to it sooner or later...I just don't have the skills necessary yet (ie I can't set up anchors yet).
I think its going to be really scary, but I want to try it once just to see. Doing something scary is the coolest thing sometimes. I just learned that doing the Via Ferrata at NRP.
So yeah, its because I haven't gotten to the level I need to yet. My partner wants to start by the end of the summer though, so we'll see what happens.
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rockwomyn
Mar 25, 2003, 5:13 PM
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I lead...but not all the time. I have to feel prepared and confident to do so. i started out by leading sport and found that it was fun but very unnerving to have to push through to the next bolt for protection.....i too get freaked that when i let go to clip my good hold will slip and i'll take a whipper. I HAVE NEVER TAKEN A LEAD FALL...and i truly think that is why i still lead.
But i really do enjoy leading trad....with the help of my partner/boyfriend who has showed me how to place protection. We spent quite a bit of time with me placing gear on ground level and him checking and explaining why it was good or not etc......now i prefer trad. i like to be able to place my own gear when i feel the need for a rest instread of chasing the bolts.
so anyway...i am still a newbie leader and still spend plenty of time following and top roping. i have never been a extreme risk taker and don't have the desire to prove anything to anyone. my pace of leading is going to take me longer to accomplish the level that i would like to be at..but i will do it slowly and at my comfort level in order to keep my head in the game.
ok then...end rambling! :D
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weaselman
Mar 25, 2003, 10:32 PM
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at the gym i frequent, (Urban Krag in Dayton, Ohio) there's a Bulgarian couple that climbs. the lady is AMAZING! her husband explained that she majored in climbing in college (i didn't know that was possible) and is a certified guide. she just flies up the lead routes, but it doens't look like she's going fast. she's graceful, powerful, and just cool. better than all the guys in our gym put together.
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missedyno
Mar 25, 2003, 11:49 PM
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oh geez.
this is a really good topic because everyone always discusses leading, and why they lead.....
ecocliffchick, i know what you mean about the "top rope princess!" my boyfriend leads waaaaay harder than i do and i can clean just about anything he can climb... but i feel like i'm not pulling my weight or something.....
i normally don't spout about grades, but here's your for instance.
in mexico in winter i was sending just about every 11a on TR. you know what level i lead? 5.7. har.... i've practiced some falls but it still freaks me out. i'm not into climbing for the thrills, it's just different
*edit. where did that html tag come from???
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moey
Mar 26, 2003, 3:55 AM
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I discovered something funny the other day - I hadn't been climbing (yes, not even bouldering) Except for Ice, of course - since november. :shock:
I went off to the gym with my partner and found the answer to all my questions.
See- the last time I went climbing outdoors I was with new partners (Katy, remember the day at bottleglass?) and there was a route I knew I could lead, but I chickened out (cold fingers, was it?!?). It's been bugging me ever since.
After a brilliant session inside the other day I realized that all my confidence comes from my belay. When i trust them implicitly, I climb waaaay better with far less effort. Not so wierd I guess, but it's not like I conciously DIDN"T trust Kate. (you know I trust you now, right?! :D )
I think it also helps to have someone who has a solid idea of your limits being there to encourage you. I have some pretty funny stories about my first leads which I think only happened because he knew how badly I wanted it and he wanted to make sure I pushed through it even when I was doubting myself.
It all comes out so akward 10 hours past my last coffee.... :?
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moabbeth
Mar 26, 2003, 5:25 AM
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I try to do leads when it's appropriate, but honestly most of the time I'm climbing trad with really talented climbers of higher skill than I. It's easier I guess to be out at Josh watching my partner fly up a 5.10b placing gear in all the right places than make them sit there and wait while my ass sits there analyzing my placements up a 5.7. But I AM learning it though, just not at as fast a pace as I'd hoped to with trad. It takes more time and confidence that I need to build up some more, it so mental. So mental!! I have pushed myself to do outdoor sport leads though, less mind games. Just focus on technique and clipping and anchors, so I've kinda concentrated on sport leads for now to get used to being on the sharp end. I can lead 5.9's sport now (again, outside) and am comfortable enough leading 5.8's that I've taken a few newer climbers out with me to some sport crags so I am FORCED to lead by matter of necessity. If I don't get up there we don't climb, good incentive.
But I gotta give props to a couple of guys who are sometimes on this site who have given me a great deal of encouragement and instruction in trad leading over this past winter out at Joshua Tree. It's a slower process for me than sport leading, but quite worth it (guys you know who ya are :wink: ). Learning to lead on trad takes time and patience from those teaching it and I've been lucky to find a couple of guys who have been willing to take that on with me.
I think at least here in SoCal, there's a good amount of women who lead. There was this girl out at NJC a couple Sundays ago who was leading a 5.11b and totally pushing herself (she took a fall or two buch her technique was awesome). When she got done my partner and I told her "great job" and she sheepishly said "thanks, but I'm the weakest climber in my group" like she hadn't accomplished something that she had every right to feel proud about.
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ecocliffchick
Mar 26, 2003, 3:15 PM
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I've been thinking more about this. When my partner and I head to a crag for the day, it's likely that his and my goals are completely different. He wants to climb hard. He wants to redpoint specific routes. I tend not to have as distinct a mindset. I usually do not have a route in mind when I'm walking to the crag. I'm just enjoying being outside. The fact that I get to climb is a bonus. Perhaps that's why I'm not as driven to lead.
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rock_diva
Mar 27, 2003, 7:35 PM
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I love to lead but don't do it as often as I could... hadn't really determined why, so this has been enlightening!
I think I have a mental block that doesn't allow me to lead above a certain level - which varies between sport and trad. The level I feel comfortable leading is at least a whole grade lower than I can flash on toprope. If we're doing a climb that is in my lead range, I'll go for it. But if it's more difficult -- even if I know I can successfully climb it -- I opt for toprope.
I'd really like to get past this block and raise the level of leading!
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enigma
Mar 28, 2003, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: I love to lead but don't do it as often as I could... hadn't really determined why, so this has been enlightening! I think I have a mental block that doesn't allow me to lead above a certain level - which varies between sport and trad. The level I feel comfortable leading is at least a whole grade lower than I can flash on toprope. If we're doing a climb that is in my lead range, I'll go for it. But if it's more difficult -- even if I know I can successfully climb it -- I opt for toprope. I'd really like to get past this block and raise the level of leading!
I think its the falling aspect,fear of falling.
Yeah I can try an hard 10d toprope.But leading,Well last weekend I pinkpointed a 5.8 outside, and I've done, some sport leads in a gym to 5.9 but its still a mental game. It's all in your head. :roll: :( :evil: :shock:
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ecocliffchick
Mar 28, 2003, 8:16 PM
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The mental aspect for me is lessened slightly when I know the route. If I've toproped the route a couple of times, I then don't have much of an issue leading it bolt to bolt. It's just the fear of getting hurt (not the fear of falling) that does me in. So if there's a chance I'll accidentaly let go from fatigue while clipping I just won't lead the route. This seriously limits my ability to lead things onsight.
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dirtineye
Mar 29, 2003, 8:31 PM
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I don't get it. There are TONS of great female climbers who lead quite well. I do not think the problem you girls are talking about is gender related at all, bacause I hear many of the same reasons for not leading from males.
Maybe leading isn't for everyone, or maybe those who don't feel good about leading have not spent eoungh time placing gear close to the ground and hanging on it?
I took one brave girl out tto teach her some trad, well she could boulder OK at that point, so we had a little lesson on passive gear (nuts and tri-cams) and then she scooted up this 5.8 or so crack about 20 feet, placing lots of gear. IT was all pretty fine gear too, cause she had carefully practiced on the ground til she had the pieces right. SInce I'd seen her boulder I knew she could hang out on this particulaar crack and have no trouble with the climbing, and if she fell the face was pretty smooth so there wouldn't be much trouble. SHe just had the right attitude and the right preparation and didn't think twice about leading up part of this climb.
To be honest, this gal is sort of a natural, but it was more her attitude and careful study on the ground that made leading go for her. Making her hang on every piece probably helped with the confidence too.
Get out there and plug gear girls.
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climb.on
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Mar 30, 2003, 1:09 AM
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I understand the whole "not pulling one's weight at the crag" thing. I am relatively new to climbing and because of that I know that my partner probably takes care of me more than he should.
I certainly do not want to be a "top rope princess" all of my life, nor do I feel like following and cleaning pro forever. Right now I am at a place where I trust my partner, I trust the pro, but I do not yet trust myself. Eventually, with more trust in myself, leading will come.
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aimeerose
Apr 1, 2003, 1:15 AM
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I don't think it's so much a gender thing as a confidence thing. However, since men tend to be more confident than women, I guess it does separate into gender. What I hear all you gals saying who don't want to lead is that you don't have the confidence to do it. Maybe you should look at your lives and see why you aren't confident. It could be something totally not related to climbing at all. Not to get all deep, but it's just a thought.
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mreardon
Apr 1, 2003, 1:39 AM
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I do not believe it's a gender thing per se. Leading is definitely a head game and you have to have a supportive partner/belayer for it. I know I can't lead at the top of my game without confidence in my belay partner. And most times the person belaying me isn't necessarily as strong as me and vice versa. So we take turns with each other's "projects". This last weekend I led a 12 trad while placing gear, my partner followed it with only one bounce. He didn't lead anything harder than a 5.8 all weekend, but I had no problem following him on his projects. In this case it works out great because I like to do plenty of laps when I'm out to warm up and warm down. Again, it's about sharing the lead and supporting each other. Before long, he'll be leading at or close to the same level and then we'll be doing more multi-pitches together. If not, then we stay with the single pitches or we find multi-pitch routes and share appropriate leads.
Regardless of gender, get a partner that allows the same thing and before you know it, you'll be leading and ropegunning. If someone is that impatient, then you become nothing more than a belay slave anyways.
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lazygirl
Apr 1, 2003, 8:22 PM
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I think leading has a lot to do with who is teaching you. My Dad taught me so I was completly comfortable learning how to lead. When it comes to sport leading I'm usally fine and can pretty much lead at the same standard that I climb at. When I lead a 5.10 on sport I do think about what could go wrong but I'm not that distressed. I just think, "Okay, if I can't pass it I'll just leave some crummy biner behind or have my friend lead it." It's only when I lead trad that I get really nervous. I can't lead trad anywhere near my hardest climbing ability but then again who can? The majority of trad climber I know lead way below their standard on sport or TR.
I do love leading though. I think that's because my Dad instilled in me from the begining that leading is what climbing is about, and there is nothing like being on the sharp end of the rope. If you really want to lead just find someone you are very comfortable learning from. It helps take away some of the stress.
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ecocliffchick
Apr 1, 2003, 10:17 PM
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Why does the mentality exist that says "if you aren't leading, it's not climbing"?
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wigglestick
Apr 1, 2003, 10:55 PM
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In reply to: Why does the mentality exist that says "if you aren't leading, it's not climbing"?
I don't think there is a mentality that says anything other than leading is not climbing. It is just that there are different levels of respect (for lack of a better word) that are given to different styles of ascending a route.
This entire thread is about people recognizing that leading a route is a whole different endeavor than top roping something and wishing that they could overcome their fears and climb routes in a more universally respected style. Leading a route requires a higher level of commitment than top roping the same route. And rewards are usually commensurate with dedication and commitment. There is nothing inherently wrong with top roping a route. But to insist that top roping and leading are equals seems to go against everything this thread has said thus far.
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aimeerose
Apr 1, 2003, 11:20 PM
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Very eloquent, wigglestick. And the point remains that you can't onsight something on toprope. It's just considered a flash.
Obviously you're still climbing even if you're on toprope, but it's a different game. It just can't be compared to leading. I guess that's why you don't get the glory of calling it an onsight if you're on toprope. If you're not willing to take the risks (and such a small risk it is when you're sport climbing), you don't get the same glory.
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climbingbetty22
Apr 7, 2003, 3:54 PM
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I know this might piss some people off, but I do think leading can be a gender thing. Guys tend to have overexaggerated egos- they believe they can do anything until they are proven wrong. Women, tend to be the opposite, we have to prove to ourselves we can do something before we believe we can. (This is something I learned in a psych class, so I'm not just pulling it out of my ass) Case in point, I have a friend who adventure races. He believes he can swim 5 miles without training for it. He will only believe he can't do it if he goes the day of the race and drops about because he almost drowns trying to do it. I, on the other hand, would have to train for months and actually have to do a 5 mile swim before hand to believe that I could do that sort of thing in a race.
Same thing with leading. I think guys more times than not have the attitude, 5.10? I've climbed one of those before, so I can lead one of those. While women, tend more to start off slow and work their way up. I don't think that that is a bad thing though. Hey, there is a reason why we have a longer life expectancy. It's because we are less likely to do something stupid that gets us killed. I enjoy leading. I'm working on getting better at it, but I am picky about who belays, if it's a dude, it has to be one of my supportive, patient friends. Otherwise, my fav belayer is my friend Diana because she and I are at the same place. We both climb about the same level and both of us are starting to lead, so we have no problems belaying each other as the other does a 5.3 lead. I just wish she weren't in Colorado....
My 2 cents for any women starting to lead..find another women at the same place and take turns belaying each other on lead...you both get some wonderful experience, without the nasty feeling of holding someone up because you are leading something easy. (That is only if both of you know what you are doing when it comes to gear placement, anchor building, rope management, etc.)
betty
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aimeerose
Apr 7, 2003, 6:21 PM
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Hmmm, I must be a man. I believe I can do anything unless proven otherwise (thanks to my mom who told me I could do anything I set my mind to.)
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alpinebedy
Apr 7, 2003, 6:30 PM
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Climbingbetty is so right about the differences in the female and male mentalities. Case in point, my boyfriend and I have this bet that he can't run a mile in 6 min. with absolutely no training, after not running for over a year because of two sprained ankles. He is absolutely certain he will win this bet. He was going to do it after eating a huge Chinese dinner and drinking a beer but fortunately for him it was pouring out and no one wanted to stand in the rain and time him. But anyway, I can't fathom being that sure about something I haven't done in a year or even tried to do.
As for leading, I enjoy the challenge of being totally self-reliant but don't feel comfortable leading at my limit. And since I'm not a sponsored climber, everything I do must be either fun or emotionally fulfilling, otherwise it's a waste of time. It's easy to lose sight of all that though, when everyone's so focused on climbing the highest grade they can.
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climbingbetty22
Apr 7, 2003, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: Hmmm, I must be a man. I believe I can do anything unless proven otherwise (thanks to my mom who told me I could do anything I set my mind to.)
Nah you're not a man. There's exceptions to all the rules. You had a great mom. I wish more women had that attitude. But our society has a different socialization process for men and women. That's a large part of where the ego develops. If a child has been told all their life that they can do anything, that's what they will believe. If a child is told no all their life, then that's what they will believe. Anyway, it's getting alot better than it use to be, but still alot more girls are told no then boys. I think that contributes to the attitude women climbers have toward leading. I know alot of women who when climbing comes up, they don't think they can do it because they don't have any upper body strength. Guys, though, seem invincible.
My 2 cents on the subject
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