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crotch
May 8, 2003, 9:06 PM
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How much longer does it take you to hand-drill a hole for 3/8" x 2.5" 5-piece bolt vs. a 5/16" x 2" split-shaft in hard granite? Are we talking a 5-minute difference or more?
My problem with 3/8" is that the bolts are heavier, the holes will take longer, and I'll have to carry a wrench to tighten them up, which is more weight. Cost isn't really the issue, but time and energy are.
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gawd
May 8, 2003, 9:10 PM
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why put in a bolt at all?
if you are going to permentaly leave your selfish mark on the rock, you should atleast make sure it the best job possible.
anything less then a 3/8" ss is worthless, just like most of the perpetuators that place them.
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brianinslc
May 8, 2003, 9:18 PM
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In reply to: How much longer does it take you to hand-drill a hole for 3/8" x 2.5" 5-piece bolt vs. a 5/16" x 2" split-shaft in hard granite? Are we talking a 5-minute difference or more?
I've only hand drilled 5/16" on granite and 3/8" in sandstone...
But, a person could calculate, volumetrically, the difference in material, and factor from there. I'm guessin' you could double your time, at a minimum. If 20 minutes to hand drill a 5/16", then 40 for 3/8"? Add additional time for a deeper hole.
Brutus would probably have a much better idear.
Another option would be 5/16" RB's, and just leave the hole, maybe redrilling to 3/8" later if time allowed. Especially if you just needed a couple of holes per pitch. Although, a wad of these dudes is a heavy capitol outlay.
You might also consider stepping up to a tad heavier hammer. Makes hand drilling a ton faster for me.
Brian in SLC
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crotch
May 8, 2003, 9:23 PM
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gone
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ljthawk
May 8, 2003, 9:44 PM
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Brian,
I don't think one can speculate via area of the rock removed when discussing hand drilling. I hand drilled the same piece of limestone with both a 1/2 inch bit and a 3/8, the 1/2 inch didn't take too much longer then the 3/8, maybe 50% longer. In hand drilling, at least my experience, once the hole is started the hitting of the hammer is usually enough to provide adequate impact pressure for the larger bit to drill at a decent progression. In fact in some respects it was easier to hand drill with the larger bit because the bit was less likely to wedge in and get stuck. The 5/16 bit appears small to me, you would probably have to drill gently or else it may occasionally wedge in given it's smaller tip surface area and therefore higher impact pressure.
L.J.
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crotch
May 8, 2003, 10:13 PM
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In reply to: But, a person could calculate, volumetrically, the difference in material, and factor from there. I'm guessin' you could double your time, at a minimum. If 20 minutes to hand drill a 5/16", then 40 for 3/8"? Add additional time for a deeper hole.
I've drilled both by hand at a local granite area, but without paying attention to times. It just felt like the 3/8" required NOTICEABLY more work. Your factor of 2 estimate feels right, but I am crappy with time estimates. I think it takes me 15 minutes to get to work in the morning, but I leave a half-hour early and still get here late.
In reply to: Another option would be 5/16" RB's, and just leave the hole, maybe redrilling to 3/8" later if time allowed. Especially if you just needed a couple of holes per pitch.
Good point. I doubt these will be used for lead protection. More like raps and belays. To save weight for raps I'm thinking of rivet hangars instead of bolt hangars. (ducking)
In reply to: You might also consider stepping up to a tad heavier hammer. Makes hand drilling a ton faster for me.
And here I was thinking of ditching the hammer and my ice axe and bringing a 3rd tool to pull double duty. Something like the Charlet Moser P'tit Loup.
http://www.petzl.com/...ublicFamille?id=PIOL
Brian, thanks for the response.
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rockprodigy
May 9, 2003, 4:25 PM
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Where are you going in the alaskan backcountry that you have to hike into? I'm hoping to go to the Kichatnas this summer, will I see you there?
If it's not in the Denali park, see if your bush pilot will air drop gear for you.
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brianinslc
May 9, 2003, 4:55 PM
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[quote="crotch] I've drilled both by hand at a local granite area, but without paying attention to times. It just felt like the 3/8" required NOTICEABLY more work. Your factor of 2 estimate feels right, but I am crappy with time estimates. I think it takes me 15 minutes to get to work in the morning, but I leave a half-hour early and still get here late.
Whew...glad to know it just isn't me...
In reply to: Good point. I doubt these will be used for lead protection. More like raps and belays. To save weight for raps I'm thinking of rivet hangars instead of bolt hangars. (ducking) Naw, check out the lightweight aluminum hangers by Lucky, Petzl and...(ugh...memory)...seem even a tad lighter than the USHBA Ti ones. And, at 18Kn, plenty strong enough. Available as cave hangers, too, so a small rapide, and yer downward bound. Lucky Alba is a cave hanger that I think "hangs" a quick link a tad better than a Petzl Coudee. Lucky Cave is the standard shape aluminum hanger. Has a small profile, so, no so bulky for an alpine kit. Only a buck per from Barrabes right now... In reply to: And here I was thinking of ditching the hammer and my ice axe and bringing a 3rd tool to pull double duty. Something like the Charlet Moser P'tit Loup. I think I'd go (now that I recall where yer headin') a real hammer, like an A5, or, a 40cm alpine hammer, with some heft like an old BD X-15 BRS. I have a Grivel thor (and their other light hammer with an alpine ice pick). Works fine for soft rock (ie, Navaho sandstone) but would be a bummer for hard rock. I thin the CM tool is real similar in weight. Be too light for my taste. Also, watched some strong kids hand drill up high on granite last summer. They were using the short, 2.25" Hilti stainless bolts. Anyhoo, I have a few of these, and you really only need a short 1" or so hole for them. I note that Hilti also makes a 1/4" by 1 3/4" stainless bolt too. That'd be a fast option (and with a rocpecker, easy to swap bits should the need arise). Kwik bolts, I think. 304 stainless. I hear tell to avoid the Fixe rivets, as they don't test out at being very strong. 8mm diameter. Be nice to leave hardware that "could" be used by a subsequent party. Brian in SLC
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crotch
May 13, 2003, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: Also, watched some strong kids hand drill up high on granite last summer. They were using the short, 2.25" Hilti stainless bolts. Anyhoo, I have a few of these, and you really only need a short 1" or so hole for them.
You just leave an inch sticking out of the hole and tie 'em off short?
In reply to: I hear tell to avoid the Fixe rivets, as they don't test out at being very strong. 8mm diameter.
Are you referring to the split shafts?
In reply to: Be nice to leave hardware that "could" be used by a subsequent party.
Agreed.
Thanks again for dropping knowledge.
Crotch
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crotch
May 13, 2003, 8:08 PM
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In reply to: Where are you going in the alaskan backcountry that you have to hike into? I'm hoping to go to the Kichatnas this summer, will I see you there?
We're heading into Gates of the Arctic NP. I hope you get a couple of good days of weather. When are you headed in?
In reply to: If it's not in the Denali park, see if your bush pilot will air drop gear for you.
Unfortunately, NPS won't allow airdrops where we're going. Which means I need a pack that can hump 60lb loads and then climb well. I'm not sure anything does both well.
Crotch
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rockprodigy
May 13, 2003, 8:23 PM
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Going into the Arrigetch, eh? I'd love to go there, and the way things are looking, I may not be able to get into the Kichatnas. "Brianinslc" has been there, you should ask him about it. Bring yer skeeter dope!
If we go at all, it will be in July, so a glacier landing may not be possible. We're looking at a 10-15 mile bushwhack, though I've been told it's doable. Probably have to make 3 trips for all the gear, though (hooray!), but that means I can bring 3 different packs if I want.
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brianinslc
May 13, 2003, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: You just leave an inch sticking out of the hole and tie 'em off short?
Just put the hanger on and run the nut down the threaded shaft. Those dudes are threaded almost all the way to the wedge at the bottom. Handy if you need a quick anchor, and can't afford to drill it deeper.
In reply to: Are you referring to the split shafts?
Yeah, they look like the old Rawl button heads, but apparently the metal is not so good.
I'm psyched for your trip. Man, I'd love to get back there...ugh...too much fun to be had, too little time...
Need a TR when you're back!
Brian in SLC
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brutusofwyde
May 13, 2003, 8:57 PM
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Hey Crotch, the holes I've drilled with 3/8 seem to take about 30% more time than the 5/16 for similar length.
HOWEVER
Can't get splitshaft buttonheads that fit 5/16" holes anymore. The "5/16" inch buttonhead splitshafts on the market today require a sloppy 5/16" hole, resulting in a placement of erratic and questionable quality.
For this reason, I have reverted to 3/8" and 1/4" for backcountry drilling. Places to save weight are:
Rawl handle -- weigh about 8 oz. raw. Can saw these suckers off to half-length and have a lighter handle than the Rockpecker. 'Course, the availability of bits is an issue unless you have some in your kit already.
Rockpecker -- look for short 3/8" bits (I haven't found any yet) or get the short Hilti 10mm bit trimmed to 3/8" (I'm considering this).
Hangers: some extremely light 1/4" hangers out there, similar in desgn to the 1/4" keyhole. Pika makes 'em, I believe. Or for routes not likely to be repeated, the Pika keyhole reduces your weight even more through re-use.
3/8" hangers are available in titanium, and are the primo answer for the 3/8" placements.
Hope this helps.
Brutus
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ljthawk
May 13, 2003, 9:28 PM
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What about making your own hand drill by getting a replacement keyless chuckmeant for a power drill, fabricate a small handle for it to thread into, and then use non SDS carbide tipped bits from most any hardware store. McMaster has 3/8 straight shank masonry bits as short as 4". ( http://www.mcmaster.com ) I once thought about making my own non SDS hand drill with a keyless chuck, but put the idea on the back burner since I have no real need for it.
Just a thought.
L.J.
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brutusofwyde
May 13, 2003, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: What about making your own hand drill by getting a replacement keyless chuckmeant for a power drill, fabricate a small handle for it to thread into
"Fabricate" is the key issue. My fabrication consists of prevarication, exaggeration, and using a skill saw with abrasive blade to chop Rawl handles and make sawed-off pins. Other than that, I am useless in the area of hardware R&D.
Brutus
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gunkiemike
May 16, 2003, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: What about making your own hand drill ...L.J.
I made a couple holders, but neither hold the drill as tightly as either my old Rawl (taper shank) holder or a new SDS type (I forget what brand it was I used). The tip of the drill bit makes a big difference too. I'm surprised how many bits are dull and all splattered with brazing compound. I also believe that most SDS bits are shaped for primarily rotary i.e. shearing action, as opposed to a more symmetrical chisel point. My best bits came diamond honed and are much faster than the others.
You can also buy a diamond stone for less than $10 to touch up the carbide tip.
McMaster still has 5/16 split shaft buttonheads. The specs are surprisingly good, but if you drill a 5/16 hole, why not use a 5 piece bolt? That's what I did. I think the 5/16 bolts from Powers come as short as 1.75 inches. Not the stuff of a sport route, for sure, but for my purposes - stopping a slide down a 55 degree granite slab - they are fine.
I think a 5/16 hole is significantly faster to drill than 3/8, but also haven't timed it. Clearly the depth matters.
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copperhead
May 17, 2003, 12:32 AM
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Sorry for infiltrating the Alpine & Ice forum but I can’t pass up a drilling discussion…
In reply to: What about making your own hand drill by getting a replacement keyless chuckmeant for a power drill, fabricate a small handle for it to thread into, and then use non SDS carbide tipped bits from most any hardware store.
What you have just described is the Hurricane hand drill, designed by John Middendorf. The drill uses a collet system whereby you can buy any size collet you need (in increments of at least a 64th on an inch) and thus, use any size bit you want. It’s probably the most versatile hand drill out there.
I would agree with Brutus as far as drilling time between a 5/16” hole and a 3/8” hole. Obviously, you will need to drill a significantly deeper hole for a 3/8” bolt than you would for a 5/16” bolt. For this reason, 5/16” buttonheads are popular on free routes that go ground-up (stance drilling) or backcountry routes with a long approach. Unfortunately, the Rawl 5/16” buttonheads have been discontinued and the Fixe version is garbage. If you have any of the Fixe buttonheads, throw them away!!! They are made of junk metal and they are way too soft. In my archaic bolt testing, I found that a hanger will cut a groove into the top of the bolt; this would never happen to a Rawl buttonhead. The heads of the Fixe bolts will unpredictably snap off if hammered on too much or when pulling the bolt for replacement. So, with that said, unless you have a back-stock of the original Rawl buttonheads, drilling time doesn’t matter.
As Brian mentioned above, 3/8” x 2 1/4" stainless thread-head bolts can be placed in shallower holes. I wouldn’t recommend placing one in a hole less than 1 1/2" deep; a hole will not be true diameter until it is at least an inch or more in depth. Rawl/Powers also makes a bolt in the 3/8” x 2 1/4" size.
Forget SDS or carbide-tipped bits. They are dull and drill way too slow. Use high-speed steel (HSS) bits – the inexpensive, general use ones (wood, metal, etc.) that you can buy at a hardware store. A grinder is required to sharpen the bits to a flat, chisel-tip point; don’t worry about overheating the metal as you would if you were dealing with heat-treated metal, like pitons or hooks... I guarantee you that a sharp HSS bit of any diameter will drill two or three times faster than any SDS bit. A HSS bit will become dull more quickly than an SDS bit and needs to be sharpened on the rock after each hole or two. SDS bits are only available in generic sizes; HSS is available in any size. Using HSS bits enables you to use the correct size bit for the job. An 11/32” bit works well for the Fixe 8mm buttonheads but the bolts themselves are still garbage, no matter how well you place them.
HSS bit size per bolt for granite:
1/4" buttonhead = 1/4" bit
5/16” machine head rivet = 17/64” bit
5/16” Rawl/8mm Fixe buttonhead = 21/64” or 11/32” bit, depending on the rock
3/8” 5-piece or thread-head bolt = 25/64” bit
1/4" buttonheads are still bomber.
Have fun drilling. You know you like it…
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dingus
May 17, 2003, 12:46 AM
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Brutus, Copperhead...
I still have about 10 of those 5/16 rawls left in my kit, plus mated SMC hangers already on them and brand new rawl drive bits as well. My problem is the freakin broke key in the drill handle. Made me buy a Pecker it did. Let me know Brutus, if you find some reasonable length SDS bits.
To Crotch...
Brutus is freakin fast on the drill. I bet Copperhead is too. It takes me, a drilling shithead, a LOT LONGER to drill 3/8 vs 5/16. I guess the depth difference makes a huge impact. The other issue is actually hanging onto those shortened handled rawl drives is very fatiguing, esp. as the hole gets deeper. Eventually you run out of room for your hand and have to use 3 fingers to turn the thing. At least I did.
Last summer was hand drilling a few 3/8 by, um, 3 or 3.5" belay and rap anchors. Yowza!
taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...taptaptaptap...
All afternoon. Know what I'm saying? I never knew how tired that muscle between the thumb and forefinger on the left hand could get. (now the right hand... I knew ALL ABOUT THAT! hehe)
DMT
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brutusofwyde
May 17, 2003, 1:12 AM
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In reply to: I still have about 10 of those 5/16 rawls left in my kit, plus mated SMC hangers already on them and brand new rawl drive bits as well. My problem is the freakin broke key in the drill handle. Made me buy a Pecker it did. Let me know Brutus, if you find some reasonable length SDS bits.
Well Dingus, I still have the 5/16" Rawl drilling kit, w several bits. Still have one long handle, too, although I think ya need to learn how to deal with the flathand, thumb and forefinger method. Bu the time the drill gets deep enough to be awkward, the durn bit has purdy much stabilized the rig in the hole. Now, about drilling time:
In reply to: taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap... taptaptaptap...
No WONDER you took so long dude! It should go like this:
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptap
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptapowsh!taptaptaptaptaptap
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptap.
Check hole length.
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptap
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptapowsh!taptaptaptaptaptap
taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptap.
Set bolt.
hth!
Brutus
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leec
May 17, 2003, 1:37 AM
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Just in case - I've a cool friend that runs a high tech machine shop - can pretty much fabricate anything, and as a climber he knows where we're coming from.
If you're desperate I can pass on his email address if you PM me.
Just how much titanium can you afford?
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rockprodigy
May 19, 2003, 8:56 PM
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C-head,
When you're grinding those HSS bits down, do you want to mimic the chisel shape of the SDS bits? Then when you sharpen on the wall, you use a diamond stone, or is there another preferred tool?
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