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wallrat
May 13, 2003, 5:19 AM
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I've been hearing both good and bad things about those Russian titanium screws. Does anyone know if there has been any testing done on them to establish their strength, and where I could find the results? Some guys say they fail too easily, but I love mine. At nearly half the weight of the BD's I grab them first.
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cynic
May 13, 2003, 5:25 AM
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I had heard about this earlier, actually, if you look in "How to Ice Climb" in the HTRC series they do the test and the basic result is that while Ti screws tend to be slightly weaker on average the strength really depends on manufacturer and placement. I think the biggest problem with standard Ti screws is their durability, but that's strictly hearsay.
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cynic
May 13, 2003, 5:30 AM
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From "How to Ice Climb"
In reply to: Although small-diameter titanium screws are slightly weaker in the ice[than chrome-moly screws], they're also light and cheap. If you carry skinny titanium screws, use the stronger, heavier, chrome-moly screws at the belay and early in the pitch, when potential forces are high. Save the ligher, weaker screws for way up on the pitch when the force of a lead fall is relatively low. |
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micahmcguire
May 13, 2003, 10:50 AM
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yeah, they are cheap, light, and dull easily. plan on getting a fair number more than you would with the black diamonds or grivels or another good company, but hey, they are so cheap that usually you can afford it.
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leec
May 13, 2003, 7:22 PM
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Apart from strength I find mine are more prone to ice sticking inside and being a pain in the butt to remove.
But at $10 from a dude in the campsite at Cham I wan't complaining.
And they are light.
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brutusofwyde
May 13, 2003, 8:06 PM
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I use 'em. The Ti screws with the diameter larger than std BD screws allows "drafting" in pre-existing screw holes when there's no good ice anywhere except the screwed-up swiss cheese. Carry about 3 along, like 'em for the ultralight backcountry climbs as well.
Brutus
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pico23
May 14, 2003, 5:22 AM
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In reply to: I use 'em. The Ti screws with the diameter larger than std BD screws allows "drafting" in pre-existing screw holes when there's no good ice anywhere except the screwed-up swiss cheese. Carry about 3 along, like 'em for the ultralight backcountry climbs as well. Brutus
I carry 3 to round out my rack. They weight almost nothing compared to a chromo screw and I can bail on them without a second thought. Even if rap off all 3 to get off a climb I only lost $30. I usually place them mid pitch as per luebens book.
One thing to look at is the holding power. Modern screws have threads that actualy hold the fall and are meant to be placed at a slight downward angle in good ice. Looking at my irbis the threads don't appear to be shaped the same as the Omega and Bd and Grivels I have. I usually place my Irbis perpendicular to the fall line vs. slightly downward. As a result I don't feel the screw is as strong or has as much holding power. Does anyone know if this is accurate???
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jtcronk
May 14, 2003, 6:00 AM
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Yup, ti screws are cheap and light. They work really well if you have an extra hour to place and clean each one.....
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pico23
May 14, 2003, 6:48 PM
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hey brutus,
have you seen the Cassin (i think thats the brand) large diameter NiCromo screw. Supposedly it is designed for North American (colder, harder) ice. I haven't bought it but found a good deal this winter and was considering them. The thing I really liked was the possibility of drafting old holes.
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high
May 18, 2003, 12:47 AM
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there is a good article on this subject in one of the major climbing rags, written by craig leubben i believe. a slew of screws were tested, and would you believe that you get what you pay for...holding power does come from the threads, you'll notice the russian ti's have hardly any. this also explains why they can be such a pain in the ass to place and/or remove. these "little" details are the kinds of things that you are paying the big bucks for...when i didn't know any better, my rack consisted solely of russian ti's -they were cheap and light, and looked just as good as anything else. now, shit i keep one on my alpine rack for bailing. my life and the safety of those around/with me are worth more than the price difference. oh, another factor to think about when you're sweating thirty feet above your last shitty russian ti and your pumped out forearms are causing you to swear madly because they can't seem to turn your squeeky, cheap screw into the cold, bulletproof ice -who would you rather trust as your sailing through the air, some no namer laboring bum in siberia or wherever who is not working to or under any sort of regulated standards -or some uptight coffee drinking yuppy climber who is being logged by big brother as he/she slaves to the national standards, hoping to preserve his spot in a company he takes pride in?
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brutusofwyde
May 18, 2003, 3:57 PM
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Actually, my favorite Ti screw is far easier to place than any BD screw yet made -- it has a big ol' window-crank type thing on the end. Lotsa threads as well. Methinks that there are far more Ti options out there these days than 10 years ago, and some of them are pretty durn good, among them Ushba and Cassin models.
I'll hafta look into those large bore chromo jobs before next winter fer sure, though.
That said,
The only thing I would trust thirty feet above anything is my own tool and frontpoint placements, regardless of who is slaving to keep the treadmill of whatever national productivity turning with their little bleeding footsies, be it coffee slurping, middle-aged balding overweight suv yuppie with his own closet full of climbing gear, or cute young blue-eyed, freckle-nosed Ukranian with her hair modestly covered by a hand-woven scarf.
Your placements are your belay.
Brutus
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maohaihuang
May 18, 2003, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: when you're sweating thirty feet above your last s___ russian ti and your pumped out forearms are causing you to swear madly because they can't seem to turn your squeeky, cheap screw into the cold, bulletproof ice
if the ice is so hard why don't you just hang in your harness off the tools and depump a little? the point is that the Ti screws have their places. If you are climbing something which requires quick one-handed placement, no one said you have to use the Ti ones. The Ti ones are for when you can afford to fiddle a little.
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high
May 18, 2003, 5:41 PM
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this thread began on a discussion of russian titaniums, i was responding to this by offering my opinion and referencing an article by someone who had published his test results. you can justify taking whippers on cheap and shitty gear all you want, i too have heard about and seen other options -i.e. ushba ti's and another smaller canadien make...
so did italy have some nice ice to hang dog up this season? :P
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maohaihuang
May 19, 2003, 6:32 PM
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ice now? well... unless you really like THIN and roten stuff, there is something left in the high Dolomites. Hey, the good part is that the type screws won't matter! :D
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pico23
May 19, 2003, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: Your placements are your belay. Brutus
Oh so true!!!! Falling on ice with a big name US screw (or similar) or a russian job (or similar) is always iffy. It's more than thread holding power which is what gives the modern screws their holding power. Sometimes the ice isn't suitable to use the screw for a thread hold and sometimes it's barely suitable for a screw at all (eg. lots of nice big air pockets, over air pockets, over air pockets that you couldn't see from the ground for instance). IMO the screw is the last resort. Hang dogging?? When are we gonna see pre screwed sport ice where climbers push there limits and take several falls on a screw before making the move?? Sounds like fun :twisted: , falling 20 feet with 30 sharp points and an adze :shock: !!!!!!!
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pirate
May 24, 2003, 5:45 AM
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Hey guys hows it going?
Look Im usually over in the aid climbing forum just because thats my current ambition in climbing (of course it always changes around)But I thought I would poke around here a bit.
But hey were talkin about screws right ?
well here is my 2 cents.....First I agree that every type of screw has its place from a 10cm to a 22cm or a Cromo or Ti......
Now having said that I hate my ushba Ti screws and they are dedicated leavers (if I need to bail) or when conditions warrant (they do work good on soft ice although here in canada I rarely see ice these screws are good for) now I exclusively buy the bd screws they glide in like silk so far all the Ti screws Ive personally used seemed difficult to place. Now they have been okay for drafting, however we tend to climb long sustained routes that see realitively little traffic.
I will however just add Im glad I have a couple to use as necissary and too Im even a fan on snargs when warranted last Dec a snarg got us down when nothing else would (lets just say that in the 35 rappels down there was only ever one solution for each rap and once it was a snarg when nothing else would take. (we only could do 3 V threads due to the conditions and only left one screw and one snarg but had to cut up and sacrifice one of our twin ropes to save our asses. it was actually quite the epic. ingenuity was at its finest)
Now in 1000m of ice up and down on that trip ranging from dripping ice and chandeliered slurp you had to use your adze to climb to bullet ice we were not able to place 1 Ti screw ...yes we tried numerous times (although for the most part it was unprotectable having to simul solo) in fact in the last 2 seasons of both alpine and ice I have only used my Ti screws maybe a half dozen times.
As far as strength the ushba is only slightly weaker. Tie offs tend to bend or fail them if you take a whipper. Holding power is fairly comparable on them (if you can wrestle one in, so keep em sharp)
here the Ushbas cost comparable to the BD so price is no factor for us and hell thier light, but Ill haul the weight of BD's anytime.
This is just my experience with stuff Ive used please note I may just be a total retard and not know anything.
Cheers :wink:
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