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clandestino
Feb 10, 2004, 12:49 AM
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i am curious 'bout what is the opinion on this...(TR anchors on highball)
i wish to hear from the route developers as well as from the 'users'
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sandbag
Feb 10, 2004, 12:58 AM
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John Gill top roped a bunch of problems in the past. Go out to Horsetooth reservoir and youll see why its not such a crazy question when you may end up falling 25-35ft.
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andy_reagan
Feb 10, 2004, 7:02 PM
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personally I'd TR any highball problems I really wanted to do if I was scared of falling/injuring myself. If there was already a natural anchor like a tree or a crack I could throw a nut or cam in so much the better. If you're asking whether or not you should drill a bolt into your local highball you want to do but are too afraid to do without being roped, then I can only answer personally. I wouldn't drill. I'd use it if it was already drilled, of course though.
I'm sure it won't be too hard for you to find lots of people who would get angry at the thought of drilling a classic high ball boulder problem. I simply don't care.
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overlord
Feb 10, 2004, 7:11 PM
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in with andy on this one.
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cloudbreak
Feb 10, 2004, 7:47 PM
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This is the beginning of a long thread of arguing....... :roll:
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flagpolewizard
Feb 10, 2004, 8:25 PM
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are they going to use chalk on it, I think chalk has a way bigger impact than a bolt does, the chalk is all over the holds, no way around that, but as long as a bolt is wisely placed, if you don't like it, then don't use it
I wish just once I could catch some people pulling bolts, just once
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pk
Feb 10, 2004, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: are they going to use chalk on it, I think chalk has a way bigger impact than a bolt does, the chalk is all over the holds, no way around that, but as long as a bolt is wisely placed, if you don't like it, then don't use it I wish just once I could catch some people pulling bolts, just once
chalk can be brushed off, bolts leave a perma scar on the rock if there's natural pro avail TR em. I'm not one for bolting up everything especially a 30 foot problem. If there's no natural pro grow some nuts or leave it alone.
P.K.
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angry
Feb 10, 2004, 8:50 PM
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I agree with PK all the way on this. Chalk is just chalk, ugly sure, but temporary. Bolts will leave holes, rustmarks and other scars for long beyond the lifespan of the human race. It seems all threads eventually come to this.
I've done highball's that I wish I had led or toproped. I've led routes that are shorter than some highballs. It really doesn't matter as long as drills don't get involved. Most highballs have a walkoff, so walk up there, find something solid and set up a top belay. I've seen guys sitting atop a boulder belaying with a 20 foot line coming off their harness to the nearest anchor. Get creative, I know it can be done sans hilti, bosch, or whatever.
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flagpolewizard
Feb 10, 2004, 8:54 PM
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go drive a car without a seat belt or ride a motor cycle without a helmet, if you want to show much smaller your brain is than your "nuts" go right ahead, but don't play the big nuts card and at the same time whine and sing the sad song about scarring the rock, you don't get to have big nuts and sit there protesting the spotted sniffle snail while you play the bongo's and write bad whiney poetry
come on, a bunch of bolts less than two square inches does less damage than the stupid signs they put up all over the place that no one reads, and I bet all the bolts in the world don't cover up as much space as the one road that goes through joshua tree, whine about roads too
and talk about scarring, fall hard on a cam in soft rock, thats a scar
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rokshoxbkr19
Feb 10, 2004, 8:55 PM
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this in not an opinion on weather it is good or bad, but chalk is definitely not temporary. Classic routes or boulder problems are permanently stained, at least for as long as we will be alive
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cate
Feb 10, 2004, 8:59 PM
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[quote="fshizzle"]I agree with PK all the way on this.
i love that as the opening remark.
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jonf
Feb 10, 2004, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: Classic routes or boulder problems are permanently stained, at least for as long as we will be alive
Have you seen research done on this, or is it just something you came up with yourself? In my experience chalk (even on the most traveled rock) can be washed off. I see no reason why chalk (based on what it is made of) would permanently stain rock.
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sparki
Feb 10, 2004, 9:25 PM
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as a developer:in a last year i have developed cca 30 highballs and i do feel it is my responsibility to put TR anchors on top of these(some are shared) for the following reasons:
1.who is to say where the line between a highball ,a headpoint and a TR route is?
...i think it is on the individual climber to decide and to choose the style,
regardless of me 'publishig' the route as a highball or a headpoint or TR etc....
2.since i am cleaning it from the top down i get to know it very well and
everybody has got to get the same opportunity
3.i think it is of a less impact to drill a bolt then to use the trees
sprk
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flagpolewizard
Feb 10, 2004, 9:35 PM
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In reply to: Have you seen research done on this, or is it just something you came up with yourself?
I live in jt, and yes, most of the classic climbs are pretty torn up, and if you scrubbed the rock hard enough to remove the chalk, with the rock being as soft as it is, you'd probably remove alot of rock with it
if you think someone quoting someones research ten times removed some how makes your opinion more valid, you live in a fantasy land
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curt
Feb 10, 2004, 10:31 PM
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Each individual area will most likely have some sort of policy or ethic that will dictate whether or not bolts put in for TR anchors is Kosher. TR-ing a boulder problem, in itself is also something that is a whole other topic for debate.
I personally don't have any issue with putting a top-rope on a boulder problem if I think it is needed to keep from getting hurt. Although I haven't done this in quite a few years, I used to do it all the time--particularly in the era before good crash pads and if I was bouldering something scary with only my 100lb wife as a spotter.
If you do catch hell from other boulderers for top-roping a dangerous boulder problem, just remember that John Gill, Bob Murray, John Bachar, Jerry Moffat and many others have done the same thing. So, you're in pretty good company.
Curt
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mreardon
Feb 10, 2004, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: Each individual area will most likely have some sort of policy or ethic that will dictate whether or not bolts put in for TR anchors is Kosher. TR-ing a boulder problem, in itself is also something that is a whole other topic for debate. I personally don't have any issue with putting a top-rope on a boulder problem if I think it is needed to keep from getting hurt. Although I haven't done this in quite a few years, I used to do it all the time--particularly in the era before good crash pads and if I was bouldering something scary with only my 100lb wife as a spotter. If you do catch hell from other boulderers for top-roping a dangerous boulder problem, just remember that John Gill, Bob Murray, John Bachar, Jerry Moffat and many others have done the same thing. So, you're in pretty good company. Curt
Everyone said I was in cahoots with the devil, it's nice to know there are others :D
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fontyyy
Feb 11, 2004, 12:38 AM
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In reply to: chalk is definitely not temporary. Classic routes or boulder problems are permanently stained, at least for as long as we will be alive
Any gear will eventually (or instantly) cause damage, if I were concerned on a highball I'd use a GOOD mat and nothing else, 30' or so onto a Flashed Chi, Cordless Evil or Franklin Mondo isn't going to really hurt you.
Dunno about in the US, but if you take a drill up to somewhere like Burbage, or cram a nut in a crack in Tody's Playground someone is probably going to beat you up anyway.
And with regard to "famous" boulderers doing it so it's OK, well known climbers have also been known to use resin (instead of chalk) on gritstone in the UK, doesn't make it OK, famous or not they're still f*£#ing twats with zero thought for the impact of their actions.
IMHO we should tread as lightly on the world as we can. This does not involve taking power tools to or cramming little bits of metal into cracks on unrenewable totally irreplaceable resources any more than it involves chipping "new" holds, or using substances that destroy the surface of the rock. If you can't do it as it is, go away and get better, don't bring the problem down to your level, raise you level to meet the problem.
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curt
Feb 11, 2004, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: chalk is definitely not temporary. Classic routes or boulder problems are permanently stained, at least for as long as we will be alive What are you talking about? Over here in the merry UK it's been raining quite a bit recently and when I went out on Sunday to Robin Hood Stride it looked like new, hardly a white mark to be seen anywhere. No bloody bolts either! Any gear will eventually (or instantly) cause damage, if I were concerned on a highball I'd use a GOOD mat and nothing else, 30' or so onto a Flashed Chi, Cordless Evil or Franklin Mondo isn't going to really hurt you.
In reply to: And with regard to "famous" boulderers doing it so it's OK, well known climbers have also been known to use resin (instead of chalk) on gritstone in the UK, doesn't make it OK, famous or not they're still f*£#ing twats with zero thought for the impact of their actions.
Nice off-point rant there, but we weren't discussing rosin--were we? Anyway, top-roping off anchors built from clean protection has about as little impact as anything I can think of in the spectrum of climbing activities.
In reply to: IMHO we should tread as lightly on the world as we can. This does not involve taking power tools to or cramming little bits of metal into cracks on unrenewable totally irreplaceable resources any more than it involves chipping "new" holds, or using substances that destroy the surface of the rock. If you can't do it as it is, go away and get better, don't bring the problem down to your level, raise you level to meet the problem.
I agree with this part of your post, but your proposed solution of always using bouldering pads does not necessarily constitute minimum impact.
Curt
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billcoe_
Feb 11, 2004, 4:08 AM
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[quote="fontyyy"]In reply to: if I were concerned on a highball I'd use a GOOD mat and nothing else, 30' or so onto a Flashed Chi, Cordless Evil or Franklin Mondo isn't going to really hurt you. Dunno about in the US, but if you take a drill up to somewhere like Burbage, or cram a nut in a crack in Tody's Wall someone is probably going to beat you up anyway. If you can't do it as it is, go away and get better, don't bring the problem down to your level, raise you level to meet the problem.
Well, we all already knew it anyway, but now it's official: Brits are tough.
Gotta respect that.
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camhead
Feb 11, 2004, 4:26 AM
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TOPROPING IS NOT CLIMBING let me repeat that
DOES SHARMA TOPROPE MANDELLAA? I don't think so, and Jason Kale didn't toprope evilution and toproping is for WUSSES!!!
AND WHO THE HELL IS JOHN BACKER? the latest cutting edge problems are even getting onsites you don't need a toprope.
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curt
Feb 11, 2004, 4:43 AM
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In reply to: TOPROPING IS NOT CLIMBING let me repeat that.
Yeah, not when YOU do it. Just like bouldering--then it is called FALLING rather than climbing. :D
Curt
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riceplate
Feb 11, 2004, 5:35 AM
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In reply to: TOPROPING IS NOT CLIMBING let me repeat that DOES SHARMA TOPROPE MANDELLAA? I don't think so, and Jason Kale didn't toprope evilution and toproping is for WUSSES!!! AND WHO THE HELL IS JOHN BACKER? the latest cutting edge problems are even getting onsites you don't need a toprope.
you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
First of all, the Mandala was cleaned on a TR (though not by chris) to knock off the loose flakes. Lots of holds were snapped off. Secondly, it isn't a highball by buttermilks standards. It's par for the course in terms of height, and now that all the bushes are gone at the base, the landing is pretty decent.
Yes, I do believe that Evilution has NEVER seen a ground up ascent. In otherwords, all 3 known ascents have seen at least a TR inspection, if not a TR rehersal. Evilution is (or has been climbed) as more of a "headpoint" ascent, in gritstone style. PS: the anchor is a bolt at the top. I have seen numberous climbers working the upper crux on a rope.
Now back to the original question. I agree with Curt on this one. Go with the local ethics, which are going to vary. Here at the Buttermilks, people often have to rap clean problems, so a rope is often involved in the FA. If someone comes along and does the problem ground up, good on 'em (but just remember that they may not have had the chance, had the first ascentionist not cleaned the problem).
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brianthew
Feb 11, 2004, 5:38 AM
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riceplate....
Camhead's post is in jest. A parody of other posts.
He's just having some fun...read some of his other posts. He can be serious sometimes.
In any case, I hold the opinion that there really isn't anything wrong with top-roping a boulder problem, providing you aren't damaging the rock or such. Some might say "bah! poor form!," but whatever. Getting hurt is pretty poor form, as well. Rather have noses snubbed at me than my ankle/leg/neck broken.
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curt
Feb 11, 2004, 5:48 AM
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I love the internet. I do. I do. I do. I do. Oh, I do love it so. :lol:
Curt
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innominato
Feb 11, 2004, 6:28 AM
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I've toprope-rehearsed, or at least rappelled, one or two highballs. It didn't feel like a big deal ethically, and anyone who blows hot air about it has too much time on their hands.
I would urge you, however, not to put bolts atop a boulder that doesn't have them already. With 100 feet of static line, pro, trees, multiple anchors, whatever, you can easily leave no trace. I've also done the FFA of highballs that were cleaned on rappel by others, who had drilled bolts at the top.
Think about it though, bolts on top of boulders are basically an eyesore, and you might trip over them topping out :wink:
PS--Do a little research on Dale Bard's horrific Transporter Room, the 5.12+ X on the east side of Grandpa Peabody. It was the first of the big Grandpa highballs, years and years and years before Evilution. How did Bard do the thing?
Most of us, whether we care to admit it or not, often live, and climb, in a grey area.
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