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xanx
Apr 20, 2004, 3:42 AM
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ok for all you chem/geology majors i have a question for you:
will acetone do any realistic damage to the rock? i am specifically interested in Gunks Conglomerate. The application is by spray of approximately 75% pure acetone, 25% water. As such, all the acetone evaporates in probably around 15 seconds or so.
i am curious if anyone KNOWS that this will/will not harm the rock. please don't comment on the neccesity of it or other ethical business - that's a whole other discussion. i am looking to find out, objectively, whether or not it will harm the rock.
obviously, EVERYTHING eventually will harm the rock (including water - look at the grand canyon!) but no one is going to propose we cover all the boulders in the world to prevent damage due to water, so i think u see my point...
as an experiment, i am immersing a rock i found with quartz in it (one common mineral in conglomerate i think) in pure acetone for a few DAYS to see if anything happens.
please only respond if u have actual FACTUAL data, not speculation.
thanks a lot!
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scubasnyder
Apr 20, 2004, 3:45 AM
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why would you want to put that solution on rock ??
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the_antoon
Apr 20, 2004, 3:46 AM
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I have no factual data OR speculation.
I pissed on a rock once though. Nothing really happened.
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sandbag
Apr 20, 2004, 4:00 AM
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it really wont do much of anything.
sorry
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xanx
Apr 20, 2004, 4:18 AM
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no offense, but i don't really need commentary on the neccesity of using it...
but for the record, it is an excellent desiccant, drying off any oily residue (read: sweat and grime) on the rock, especially useful in the summer. it is very effective at drying up oils.
i would just like confirmation that it won't do anything to the rock (which i am 99% sure it won't, but i'm being hounded by local retards telling me otherwise).
thanks
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scubasnyder
Apr 20, 2004, 4:20 AM
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Yeah i know its an organic solvent, test it out, i doubt it will do anythying to the rock
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sandbag
Apr 20, 2004, 4:26 AM
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In reply to: no offense, but i don't really need commentary on the neccesity of using it... but for the record, it is an excellent desiccant, drying off any oily residue (read: sweat and grime) on the rock, especially useful in the summer. it is very effective at drying up oils. i would just like confirmation that it won't do anything to the rock (which i am 99% sure it won't, but i'm being hounded by local retards telling me otherwise). thanks
That would mean 'drying' water, in which any concentration acetone is completely miscible. its a good surfactant and solvent to break up oils.
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dawnawanna
Apr 20, 2004, 4:27 AM
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I doubt it will do anything to the rock since it's an organic solvent. But it would remove greasy substances. Ethanol or isopropyl alcohol may be a better choice, they are less likely to damage anything else (like some plastics) and will still remove greasy-type substances.
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roughster
Apr 20, 2004, 4:50 AM
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In reply to: Ecological Information Environmental Fate: When released into the soil, this material is expected to readily biodegrade. When released into the soil, this material is expected to leach into groundwater. When released into the soil, this material is expected to quickly evaporate. When released into water, this material is expected to readily biodegrade. When released to water, this material is expected to quickly evaporate. This material has a log octanol-water partition coefficient of less than 3.0. This material is not expected to significantly bioaccumulate. When released into the air, this material may be moderately degraded by reaction with photochemically produced hydroxyl radicals. When released into the air, this material may be moderately degraded by photolysis. When released into the air, this material is expected to be readily removed from the atmosphere by wet deposition. Environmental Toxicity: This material is not expected to be toxic to aquatic life. The LC50/96-hour values for fish are over 100 mg/l.
So its not an evironmental toxicological concern. However, you would be surprised to as what a little bit of cleaning with any solvent can do. The most conservative way would be to collect a decent chunk of rock from the base, take it home, and scrub it up and see what happens before using it on the actual cliff.
Don't forget you not only are worried about the reactivity/affect of the cleaning on the rock, but also the fact that you will be throwing in an additional compound in the form of chalk residue which has been combined with god knows what from the billions of people who have climbed it with god knows what on their hands like aluminum oxide, etc...
Any conglomerate is generally harder minerals held together by a softer "cement-like" matrix. It is the effect of the acetone on the matrix that should be most concerning. The fact that you are using a liquid based cleaner, let alone a solvent, WILL weaken the softer cement matrix and thus will make it more suceptable to damage by vigorous cleaning with a brush. How vigorous is too vigorous?? Depends on the hardness of the rock. Since Gunks is a a quartz sedimintary based rock and most likely has been metamorphized on top of that, it is probably pretty hard, but I would not blindly assume that without some sort of testing 1st.
My suggestions, test it throughly on a piece of rock from the actual cliff in question BEFORE doing anything to the rock itself. And make sure you only use a bristle brush and not a wire brush. I can guarentee you that you will cause damage with a wire brush and acetone. If there is any iron in the rock, acetone can actually cause a brownish staining to occur.
Hope that helps.
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xanx
Apr 20, 2004, 5:09 AM
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like i said before, i know it will cause some damage, expecially to the cement matrix, but again, so will water... which happens to be one of the best solvents around, expecially for inorganics (ionics). and don't worry, i don't use wire - i can gaurentee u'll cause damage with just wire alone.
i guess i'll get some gunks rock and soak in in acetone for a while and see what happens...
edit: also it is of note that the acetone evaporates off almost completely in less than 20 seconds...
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roughster
Apr 20, 2004, 5:12 AM
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In reply to: like i said before, i know it will cause some damage, expecially to the cement matrix, but again, so will water... which happens to be one of the best solvents around, expecially for inorganics (ionics). and don't worry, i don't use wire - i can gaurentee u'll cause damage with just wire alone. i guess i'll get some gunks rock and soak in in acetone for a while and see what happens...
Sounds like you're going about it the right way. Prudence and testing is always good when "experimenting" on a public resource :lol:
Let us know how it goes!
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valeberga
Apr 20, 2004, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: no offense, but i don't really need commentary on the neccesity of using it... but for the record, it is an excellent desiccant, drying off any oily residue (read: sweat and grime) on the rock, especially useful in the summer. it is very effective at drying up oils. i would just like confirmation that it won't do anything to the rock (which i am 99% sure it won't, but i'm being hounded by local retards telling me otherwise). thanks
I don't think it will affect the rock itself. It will dissolve most organic material, also killing any cellular life on the rock in the process. Of course you realize that dissolving the grime does not necessarily remove it--what I mean is when the acetone/water mixture evaporates, it will take very little with it into the air, so you actually have to flush the stuff over the rock or wipe it up with a rag. Try to keep it off your skin and out of your lungs too.
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roughster
Apr 20, 2004, 5:26 AM
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True Vale. Whoever is using it is definitely putting themself at risk for over exposure. Also, a terri cloth/towel will be required to help actually remove the mess once dissolved. Otherwise you will simply being smearing the mess around. I do think the acetone will remove some of the oils/slime buildup which would reduce the slickness of a hold severly caked.
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stirfry
Apr 20, 2004, 5:55 AM
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Its pretty inert. I use it for gravetational analysis. It usually doesnt react so I can clean different compounds with it before I weight them.
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xanx
Apr 20, 2004, 6:18 AM
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In reply to: True Vale. Whoever is using it is definitely putting themself at risk for over exposure. Also, a terri cloth/towel will be required to help actually remove the mess once dissolved. Otherwise you will simply being smearing the mess around. I do think the acetone will remove some of the oils/slime buildup which would reduce the slickness of a hold severly caked.
well, u figure a spray only puts about 2 mL or so out, so i really doubt a couple of mL evaporating off the surface outside is going to pose and negative health risks.
and the idea is to spray then use a toothbrush to get the stuff off.
as for it killing cellurlar life on the rock... generally not a huge amount of significant/important life on holds and such... actually, that is a major benefit of acetone: it should kill any bacteria/viruses left on the holds by the previous climber (cmon, how many times of u seen a little blood or something on a hold?).
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roughster
Apr 20, 2004, 6:34 AM
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xanx:
If you are truly going to be using so little, why not just use water which will most likely do the same trick? As for blood borne pathogens, they will be dead long before you ever get to them unless you like to lick fresh blood off the holds right after an accident :lol:
Another thing to remember is don't leave this stuff in your car!! It is highly flamable and temps in your car when hot outside with windows rolled up could cause it to go BOOM!
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apollodorus
Apr 20, 2004, 7:47 AM
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Acetone is an organic solvent. It won't affect the inorganic rock at all. It will kill lichen and other organics that live on the rock. And it will dissolve and help to clean all that man-grease that people have left on the route.
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nonick
Apr 20, 2004, 11:40 AM
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Just be careful of the fire haz. Acetone is pretty volatile and carrying it around is a problem in itself. I see no real benefit in cleaning rocks with acetone..unless they have been disfigured by grafitti or something.
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gunkiemike
Apr 20, 2004, 12:10 PM
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Just keep it out of the sunlight because it will explode.
Oh wait, that's Nitro...
Seriously, there is no effect on quartzite rock, not even to the "cement", which is also quartzite. If there were, acetone wouldn't be stored in glass bottles.
As for your planned use, I think the key issues are how you are going to get the acetone-water-oil-chalk spooge off the rock before it dries back on. If you can't get it off, you'll just be redestributing it.
The second question is the water in your spray liquid. I think you said it was 25%. That won't evaporate as quickly as the acetone, and in fact it will slow the rate of evap'n of the acetone itself. So unless the rock is warm and humidity is low, I think 15 seconds may be an optimistic estimate of drying time.
But go ahead with your experiments - anything we can do to reduce the chalk residue problem is a good thing.
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fjielgeit
Apr 20, 2004, 1:51 PM
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have you thought about asking a chemist at your local college or university?
Fjiel Geit
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