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alpinerockfiend
Jun 13, 2003, 4:40 PM
Post #201 of 209
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As I stated in an earlier post, death by rappel occurs less frequently because it is one of the few aspects of climbing that the individual is mainly able to control. This being the case, people don't fÜck around with their rap. anchors and systems. At least not reasonable people.
And for the record, only 4% of the accidents reported to Accidents in North American Mountaineering cited rappel failure/error as the primary cause. This was taken from a list of data that has been compiled annually since 1950.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 13, 2003, 5:14 PM
Post #202 of 209
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I am going to have to go out and buy a recent copy of Accidents in North American Mountaineering.
As far as I can tell there are no good numbers for climbing specifically
this site has a graphical analysis of ANAM stats
http://www.bml.umn.edu/~peter/climbing/Climbing.html
"edited to remove a questionable comment" per alpinerockfiend
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alpinerockfiend
Jun 13, 2003, 5:19 PM
Post #203 of 209
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You know, I see a lot of fall on rock, falling rock, failure to follow climbing route, inadequate protection... it's all pretty serious stuff man. Not a lot of "tripping over your own two feet" sort of things.
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kalcario
Jun 13, 2003, 5:22 PM
Post #204 of 209
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* Rappelling is more dangerous than climbing in general. In climbing/leading/top roping your using your body and mind to keep you safe, if it is not safe to fall you will tend not to. If you do fall then the rope will catch you. Two layers of protection, the equipment and your mind.
In rappelling/lowering you are totally relying on your equipment, if the system you set up fails or you lose control with your brakehand, you get hurt.*
Sounds like you finally got it!
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 13, 2003, 9:26 PM
Post #205 of 209
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Kalcario,
I finally got what?
I still don't think lowering is safer then rappelling.
And I have always hated rappelling, but I still prefer it to lowering when I have a choice.
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brutusofwyde
Jun 13, 2003, 10:10 PM
Post #206 of 209
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In reply to: Ok, here it comes - Sure let's all be sensible about safety, but all this noise about being scared sh**less about rappelling - come on! I've only been at this a year now but do have some experience under my belt in this time (including aiding the Prow, and solo attempts at Prodigal Son and Leaning Tower - ride that pig!) - I've done a lot of Rapping - I've been waaaay more scared during other aspects of climbing (try some hooks on aid, or initially high stepping aiders!, or runout leads).
I don't like rappelling. I've got some experience too, including A4 hooking, topstepping, and R/X rated 5.11 leads. Given the option of walking off the back vs. rappelling I will walk. Just about each and every time.
In reply to: Another observation (not applicable to Yosemite) - how many people have you talked to about climbing and something like the following is said: "Dang you are so brave (or dumb) to climb. I've rappelled before but would never climb"
:roll: Wow. Those folks certainly are the ones who can make a valid assessment of the risks of climbing, aren't they?
In reply to: 1. Focus - you know this is dangerous 2. Make sure my daisy is clipped at a length that will let me load the rappel and unload the daisy. 3. load that rappel hard! - make it pull your harness waist out - check my double backs - check my locker and rap device, take a close look at the loaded anchor. I vocally, out loud, check these off. 4. unclick daisy and go.
I notice that in your virtual rappel, you neither tied knots in the end of the rope, nor checked to make sure the ropes reach the next station. I've even seen folks set up their rap on the extra-long-for-safety-euro-death-knot tails... If you do something like that, not even an autoblock on your leg loop, not even knots in the end of the proper ropes will save you: With all of the checks you just made, you just rappelled off the end of the rope. D@mn, doncha hate it when that happens? :wink:
In reply to: If it is an unusual rap (gonna clean, take picture, known tangled rope, ridding the pig etc.) I setup an autoBlock on the break line/lines Sure, be very focused - load it - tripple check - and go - not a big deal.
It is the "not a big deal" attitude that will kill folks.
In reply to: I think the Rapping is soooo dangeous I would rather do anything else thing is overstated and does not address the real problem
My view is that rapping is sufficiently dangerous that if I am given the option I will find another way to get down. I don't rappel for fun. I feel that emphasizing the danger of rappelling, especially to beginners who may take a casual attitude about a seemingly simple and perhaps to them attractive aspect of the sport can instill the necessary caution that will prevent an early termination to both their climbing careers and their lives.
In reply to: as Gill stated once again for clarity:
Is John Gill working for the NPS now? Last time I stopped by the YOSAR office, there was a feller named Dill in charge.
In reply to: "In case after case, ignorance, a casual attitude, and/or some form of distraction proved to be the most dangerous aspects of the sport" This is what we need to avoid like the plague - not Rappeling - in and of itself Chad
Ahh. There you go. Definitely Dill, not Gill. I recognize his words. Yer preachin' to the choir with those words, big boy.
No disagreement from me regarding Mr. Dill's analysis of the accidents. there. But consider this: I have seen more ignorance, casual attitude, and near misses, demonstrated in rappelling than just about any other part of climbing.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving, or rappelling.
Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
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kalcario
Jun 13, 2003, 10:23 PM
Post #207 of 209
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*My view is that rapping is sufficiently dangerous that if I am given the option I will find another way to get down. I don't rappel for fun. I feel that emphasizing the danger of rappelling, especially to beginners who may take a casual attitude about a seemingly simple and perhaps to them attractive aspect of the sport can instill the necessary caution that will prevent an early termination to both their climbing careers and their lives.*
Are we done now? Listen to the experienced guys if you want to be one of them.
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stone_monkey
Jun 13, 2003, 10:31 PM
Post #208 of 209
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In reply to: I don't like rappelling. I've got some experience too, including A4 hooking, topstepping, and R/X rated 5.11 leads. Given the option of walking off the back vs. rappelling I will walk. Just about each and every time.
In reply to: It is the "not a big deal" attitude that will kill folks.
In reply to: My view is that rapping is sufficiently dangerous that if I am given the option I will find another way to get down. I don't rappel for fun. I feel that emphasizing the danger of rappelling, especially to beginners who may take a casual attitude about a seemingly simple and perhaps to them attractive aspect of the sport can instill the necessary caution that will prevent an early termination to both their climbing careers and their lives.
In reply to: In reply to: "In case after case, ignorance, a casual attitude, and/or some form of distraction proved to be the most dangerous aspects of the sport" This is what we need to avoid like the plague - not Rappeling - in and of itself Chad Ahh. There you go. Definitely Dill, not Gill. I recognize his words. Yer preachin' to the choir with those words, big boy. No disagreement from me regarding Mr. Dill's analysis of the accidents. there. But consider this: I have seen more ignorance, casual attitude, and near misses, demonstrated in rappelling than just about any other part of climbing.
If only Brutus had addressed this pages ago we wouldn't be mourning mhr2000s untimely demise today.
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pico23
Jun 14, 2003, 4:48 AM
Post #209 of 209
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Not having near the experience Brutus has but hoping to get to that point through diligent safety and good decisions over many years, Thursday we climbed 1000 vertical feet in 12 guide book pitches (we linked them into 5 belayed pitches, with a 200 feet of roped running 4th class) and only did 1 single pitch rappel vs. a more dangerous hard 4th class walkoff for the final 100ft vertical descent. The rappel anchors were two shitty trees and the rappel was of unknown end (the ropes just touched a block but I could not see this till close to the bottom do to the rappel alignment). We of course backed up the rappel with slack for my initial rappel to test the trees.
My point is nothing, other then sometimes you rappel sometimes you take another way down. It's situational but unless I know the rappel is perfectly straight forward and the walkoff is dangerous I walkoff. I personally feel rapping is more dangerous based on anchoring and unanchoring, chance of anchor failure, chance of a rope getting stuck, and chance of rock fall from a pulled rope, the chance of an anchor being missing altogether, the chance despite competence of getting lazy at the end of a long day with not enough water and not properly rigging a belay device or testing an anchor. In many areas rappels are unknown which adds a certain factor of danger. I assume yosemite has bolted rap anchors but consider other areas without good fixed anchors. A guide might say rappel off a birch but that birch might be dead Or long gone leaving you without an option besides a possible gear anchor which might not be there.
I know this was a sport route rappel question but the thread has gone beyond that anyway. I'm glad to see this thread lived even while I was out climbing for the last few days. 14 pages and counting (with the NRG thread we have dedicated 29 pages to a moron). Perhaps the weather or work has gotten the better of all of you and you feel arguing with a moron has some merit. And yeah, MHR2000, I know you are still reading this thread and I am calling you a moron because if nothing else you have proven that to every poster on this forum with your incoherent rants. Please Please Please stop telling us you are a noobie and then giving us a pontification. Just shut up and climb and get over yourself before your hubris gets you killed.
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