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marks
Feb 12, 2005, 8:20 AM
Post #1 of 22
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in the uk routes over e6 upper .12's and above are generaly top roped first then lead/soloed.due to the high fall risk.although on- sites of routes above e7/8 do happen they are quite rare.
what are the ethics over there concerning hard bold trad routes.do people top rope prior to the lead/solo.
its just that if i come to the states and fancy something hard and t-rope i dont wanna get my ass kicked in for been a stupid english fool,he he.
thanks
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anykineclimb
Feb 12, 2005, 11:26 AM
Post #2 of 22
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Headpointing is pretty much frowned upon in the US. At least for now. I read in Rock and Ice's Ethics issue that its catching on in some regions(can't remember where...)
But for the most part the ethic for trad, hard or otherwise, is onsite, ground up.
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dirtineye
Feb 12, 2005, 3:46 PM
Post #3 of 22
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What's the difference in headpointing and then leading, or following a better climber a few times and then leading?
If you can top rope it, there is no external reason not to. If you are not damaging the rock, how you climb it is between you and yourself.
About the only unethical thing would be to claim an onsight lead if you had rehearsed on top rope, or claim that you had not previewed the route on TR or something like that.
Some climbs were once top rope only, now they have been led. Is it unethical that some of the same guys who TRed the climb have now led it? Does anyone really care?
Nobody called it head pointing here, but top roping a hard single pitch climb into submission has been around a while, just as hang dogging has been. Some people would call it bad style, others would call it learning, while others would call it getting in over your head.
Of course it is fun to get up something onsight.
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boltdude
Feb 12, 2005, 6:19 PM
Post #4 of 22
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Sure, 'headpointing' has been around in the US for ages and no one cares if you do it. The trick is that lots and lots of hard US trad can't easily be toproped. Many of the hard short routes that could be TR'd were done exactly that way, even from those normally associated with hard-core ground-up ethics - eg John Bachar on Leave it to Beaver in Josh.
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flying_dutchman
Feb 13, 2005, 11:27 PM
Post #5 of 22
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headpointing is when you toprope a route and then lead it another day right?
As far as im concerned thats not wrong. I still would rather onsight a route when i lead it but that's just personal preference.
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cultureshock
Feb 13, 2005, 11:52 PM
Post #6 of 22
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Yeah but usually you only top rope the route first becase the pro is really sketchy and you dont want to be falling on it. Otherwise the leader would probally try to just onsight it.
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urbanfood
Feb 15, 2005, 6:42 AM
Post #7 of 22
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don't worry what other people think. climb it the way you want and have fun doing it. :D
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guangzhou
Feb 15, 2005, 12:03 PM
Post #8 of 22
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Actually, Head-pointing is when someone climba gear route on preplaced gear.
Unethical, no not at all. Frowed upon: only by a few.
As for top roping hard trad lines before they are lead. Sure happens all the time, especially at the elite level. Can you say Huber brother on the Zodiac.
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climbhoser
Feb 15, 2005, 1:36 PM
Post #9 of 22
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I think if the fall is reasonably clean and/or the pro is reasonably good people will give the onsight a shot. If none of the above apply then toprope rehearsal comes into play. This is not frowned upon as far as I know, though toproping a sequence into submission may take away some of the legitimacy of a lead (say 50 rehearsals and then a lead. Can it be called a lead?).
Where it gets tricky is headpointing (preplacing pro). I think because most people see it as useless. I mean, it's basically soloing with the appearance of safety. Not to mention that one has to spend an absolute arseload of time on a single route to truly "headpoint" it. It's not necessarily frowned upon, but it gets a lot of odd gazes.
The way I see it headpointers are trying to bring better ethics to the game of hard climbing. It's a noble effort, but even a lot of known traditional climbers think it's beyond silly and the use of a bolt or two at certain points isn't out of line. I understand in the UK that bolts in any way are completely frowned upon in certain areas. We're kind of meeting a head-butting point here in the states with the preservationists on one hand and the progressives on the other.
It brings up so many tangential arguments it would make your head spin. Headpointers obviously point to the purity of their style, but where can we really draw the line in purity? If we're talking about the fall from grace after Adam ate the apple, well, then that line is simply the upper bound of an infinite set. In other words, things can be more pure than others, but nothing is completely pure. But, theology aside, things have been overbolted in the last couple of decades.
If you haven't tuned in yet try to get some wind directly from and about the Boulder climbing community (www.climbingboulder.com). It seems to me that a lot of this debate is centered in this tiny socialist republic. There you have so many passionate people climbing in so many different styles and a community built on social reform that things were bound to get messy.
If you show up to the U.S. and headpoint something hard as shit, it goes without saying that a good portion of your fellow cragsters will commend and not condemn. However, what the U.S. is about and what it prides itself on is independence, especially intellectually. So, if you let some naysayers affect you then that will be what makes you stand out more than if you chopped their bolts.
It all goes to say: do your own thing and enjoy the country.
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bb
Feb 15, 2005, 2:07 PM
Post #10 of 22
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Registered: Mar 31, 2004
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Climb it how you want. It's your health at stake. And nobody is going to kick your ass over here. Just because our president is violent doesn't mean the rest of us are.
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buckyllama
Feb 15, 2005, 2:39 PM
Post #11 of 22
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There aren't a lot of people around who can onsite 5.13 trad so generally at those grades, some amount of practice is in order. Sometimes it involves aiding a pitch to pre-place gear or set a TR, sometimes the falls are clean and the gear good and it's just normal hangdogging. So long as the ascent is clean and you claim to have done exactly what you did... it's all good. Ethics come into play regarding that you leave the rock as you found it and that you are honest in your ascent. The manner in which you rehersed and completed the climb is purely a matter of style.
I should point out here that we mortals who can't climb 5.13 sometimes have been known to use similar tactics on lesser climbs.
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rockprodigy
Feb 15, 2005, 2:55 PM
Post #12 of 22
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We pretty much do whatever we want here in the states. Nobody is going to bash your head in for anything you do. You should do what makes you happy.
Where are you going in the US? There aren't many crags that sport high-level trad routes that require headpointing tactics. Most hard trad routes on the west side of the country are clean cracks that protect easily.
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live2climb
Feb 15, 2005, 5:39 PM
Post #13 of 22
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I think that if you dont feel right and comfortable leading a pitch and you can top rope it to get the feel for it then top rope it and be safe, beter to be safely climbing then geting hurt or worse and not climbing at all. Eventualy you will proabily lead it but if you dont thats cool to just have fun and be safe. Dont worrie about what othors think as long as your not harming the area or othors do your thing.
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atg200
Feb 15, 2005, 10:40 PM
Post #14 of 22
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eldorado canyon near boulder has a bit of a headpointing tradition. you may enjoy that place.
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dirtineye
Feb 15, 2005, 10:55 PM
Post #15 of 22
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In reply to: Actually, Head-pointing is when someone climba gear route on preplaced gear.
Here in the south US we call that pink pointing
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petsfed
Feb 15, 2005, 11:09 PM
Post #16 of 22
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In reply to: In reply to: Actually, Head-pointing is when someone climba gear route on preplaced gear. Here in the south US we call that pink pointing
Yeah, ditto.
Headpointing, as has been described to me, involves considerable rehearsal on toprope, including practicing placing the gear, preplacing tricky placements where necessary and learning every single motion of the climb, precisely, before attempting a lead. There are certain situations where it is absolutlely justified. Most places in the US, however, don't have a hard-and-fast bolt-free ethic like on Grit in the UK. As such, the claim is "we've got the bolts, just place them and walk away". Headpointing in the US is largely a personal choice, not a community choice. That is, in the UK, those who want to climb harder have two options: headpoint or go elsewhere. Its not that way in the states. Our ethics are considerably more relaxed and while style still matters, it matters less so.
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iamthewallress
Feb 15, 2005, 11:21 PM
Post #17 of 22
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It's quite common for the hardest traditional sends in the US are top roped into submission before being led, although this often has more to do with the difficulty of the climbing (and placing pro while climbing) than a scarecity of pro. I think this is a fine practice for pushing the limits so long as the TRs are not left fixed.
The practise of fixing the whole of popular climbs on El Cap, Half Dome, Leaning Tower, and other large formations (or major sections of them) to conveniently come and go and TR crux pitches for weeks or months at a time is rude to all of the others that also wish to enjoy these routes and the commitment that they normally entail when ropes aren't fixed for hundreds of feet to the ground or summit.
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glyrocks
Feb 16, 2005, 12:05 AM
Post #18 of 22
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huh, didn't know people fixed entire climbs on el cap and similar places. that sucks.
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guangzhou
Feb 16, 2005, 5:55 AM
Post #19 of 22
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Pink pointing is when draws are pre hung, not the gear itself on trad lines.
Of course pink pointing does bring up another good question:
Assume you decide to climb a line you have never been on before, the route has prehung draws. You climb it without falling on your first try. Did you get an onsite or a pink point?
(JUST TO SEE WHERE IT GOES)
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petsfed
Feb 16, 2005, 7:05 AM
Post #20 of 22
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In reply to: Pink pointing is when draws are pre hung, not the gear itself on trad lines. Of course pink pointing does bring up another good question: Assume you decide to climb a line you have never been on before, the route has prehung draws. You climb it without falling on your first try. Did you get an onsite or a pink point? (JUST TO SEE WHERE IT GOES)
In sport climbing, the distinction between red point and pink point has fallen out of favor. Thus an onsight is still possible, even if there are prehung draws. In trad climbing, its still an important difference. And yes, pinkpointing is when all the gear is preplaced on a trad climb. Beth Rodden did not headpoint Sphinx Crack, but she did pinkpoint it.
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onbelay_osu
Feb 16, 2005, 4:21 PM
Post #21 of 22
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if it is an established route no worries headpointing is a good practice to keep safe
on an FA i have a hard time with headpointing....i understand the use of it, matt samet in front range freaks made some good arugements for headpointing but i guess i am enough of a traditionalist to say that if you are going for a FA than it needs to go from the ground up...free..but that is just my own humble opinion
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