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twclimber
Feb 16, 2005, 7:27 PM
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Hi there, I was wondering how all of you feel about climbing on land/formations that may be held sacred by some groups. I am mostly thinking of Devils Tower. I have climbed there in June, not for the sake of disrespecting anyone, but because it was the only time I could make it to the tower. Do we have a right to do this? Should this be prohibited? Let me know what your thoughts are.- Tom
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ben87
Feb 16, 2005, 7:41 PM
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I would have make a stronger effort to re-arrange your plans, or gone climbing in any number of other great spots around that part of the country, if that really is the only window you had available.
Climbers across the country can maintain and improve their access by having respect for the requests and wishes of other parties who have some claim to the places we want to climb.
Since we can choose to climb the Tower in the other 11 months of the year, this seems like a pretty easy request to honor (admittedly, the number of months anyone would actually want to climb in that climate are far fewer, but still several).
But, I only know the basics of this access issue, so maybe others with more knowledge might have a different, or at least more informed opinion.
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mdude
Feb 16, 2005, 7:51 PM
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Hey,
All climbing areas are sacred!
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ladybigguns
Feb 16, 2005, 7:59 PM
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im gonna have to agree with ben87 here.... its not that difficult to plan around one month of the year. [thie following statement is not directed towards nayone specifically by the way] it seems quite selfish to say well i couldnt find any other time out of my busy schedule to climb it... as climbers we need to show some respect for other people... i love climbing just as much as the next but its not my place to tramp all over someone's scared ground for the sake of my enjoyment. that just aint right, man.
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graniteplanet
Feb 16, 2005, 8:13 PM
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Yeah, I also agree that we should have respect for the importance of the land we climb on. There are situations in which we have to step back and consider other people's concerns and beliefs. Chaulking up the super-rad proj that's even more super rad because there is an old looking buffalo painted in the middle of it is not cool. There are more important things in this world than really cool problems/routes. That being said I do have a few issues with the Cave Rock ifiasco. Not so much because of the sacred nature of the site to certain Native tribes, more so because it has been decided to respect these beliefs when it is convienent. If something is sacred don't build an interstate through it then say sorry, women can't touch it because that would not be respecting these people's beliefs. You can't have it both ways.
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lucander
Feb 16, 2005, 8:29 PM
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With all respect to our Native brothers and sisters, mountains hold a special meaning to just about every culture and to folks like myself, the Tower is a sacred place worthy of veneration. What's very important is that these things are climbed with reverance and appreciation, not as topographic features to be conquored or as place to prove one's "manliness".
David
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josephgdawson
Feb 16, 2005, 8:33 PM
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If the sacred ground is on public property, I could give a rat's ass about it. In fact, the whole idea of sacred ground is simply stupid. If it is on private property and the owner does not want you to climb there, then I would respect that.
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viktor
Feb 16, 2005, 8:33 PM
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Climbing has a long standing tradition of honoring local ethics. If an area is closed (or "voluntarilly" closed) it should be honored. Anything else seems too selfish and short sighted, in my opinion.
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ursasaurus7
Feb 17, 2005, 6:33 PM
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I must say that I see nothing wrong with climbing on "sacred ground." I feel that all land is sacred, and if everyone saw things that way, then maybe we wouldnt have to set aside specific areas that should be honored more than others. As long as you go there, climb with love, dont leave any trash behind, and honor our Mama Earth, then go for it. Otherwise, go climb somewhere else - like the mountains of trash - in the junk yard.
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crackmd
Feb 17, 2005, 7:51 PM
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I recall climbing at Devil's Tower and seeing offerings left by Native Americans in the talus. It is obvious that it holds a great deal of value to a group of Native Americans and taking a month off of climbing there is asking very little of the climbing community.
In all my times at Cave Rock I do not recall ever seeing any indication of Native American presence or even a Native American for that matter. I am dubious of the sacredness of that location to the local Native Americans. If someone knows different please tell me. The Cave is not on Private Property and I see no reason why it should not be open to climbing. I do not advocate climbing there now since it is officially closed. We climbers have gotten hosed on this one.
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dingus
Feb 17, 2005, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: Hi there, I was wondering how all of you feel about climbing on land/formations that may be held sacred by some groups. I am mostly thinking of Devils Tower. I have climbed there in June, not for the sake of disrespecting anyone, but because it was the only time I could make it to the tower. Do we have a right to do this? Should this be prohibited? Let me know what your thoughts are.- Tom
Yes, you have a right to. No it should not be prohibited.
And since you ask, my personal feelings are, no, I would not climb on Devils Tower in June even if that were the only month of my entire life I had the chance to. It would be *extremely* disrespectul of *me* to willfully break a *compromise* put together by many parties in a sincere effort to find a way to respect Devils Tower for all.\
Now if the cliff was legally closed, I would have a problem with that as a clear violation of the Constitution, such as what has occurred at Cave Rock Tahoe. I won't climb there either, but the Washoe reasons for closing Cave Rock violate the Constitution and the notion that we are all equal under the eyes of the law.
DMT
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sonso45
Feb 25, 2005, 6:07 AM
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I agree that DT is sacred and would honor it by my climbing it. If the indians want to make it their own one month out of the year, more power to them. I will honor it and find the time around their request. I can respect that, they are sharing it with us and we should be pleased for any time we get to climb there. It is a great example of what should be happening in our relations with the people this country ran over in it's race to conquer the land. Compromise and respect for each other. M
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