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moonshine505
Feb 17, 2005, 2:38 PM
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I'd like to describe a recent accident involving a good friend of mine and see if you can help at least me understand what went wrong but ultimately help everyone in the community learn from what happened. That being said, please keep in mind that I was not there, and do not have any useful ice climbing background, although the physics/mechanics of the accident I would think I understood...
Location: Eureaka Pass, CO
Route: Stairway to Heaven (how many ice routes are named this, anyway?)
Accident location: top of pitch 4
Time: 1:00pm, cold but sunny
Scenario: Climbing in a team of 2, the leader climbs the fourth pitch (which I've been told is a 50-60 foot of very thick ice) placing 4 17cm screws on his way up. The leader remarked that while placing the screws, he was amazed at how solid the ice coming through the tube of the screw was, no air bubbles or fractures. The pitch ends on a snowy near-horizontal ledge, from which you set up an anchor. The last screw he placed was about 10' below this ledge.
While walking on this ledge to set up the anchor, the snow gave out underneath him and he basically lost his footing and fell. He was unable to self arrest and slid slowly backwards over the edge. Here's where things really get interesting. As he falls, all 4 screws he placed on lead pull, leaving on the pitch only the two that were placed where the second was anchored for the belay. The leader hits the ledge at the top of the pitch below him feet first, breaking pretty much everything below his knees, then falls off this ledge and the length of the first pitch, landing on his back on a snowfield.
With help from another climber who had been solo'ing the route ahead of this group (but still had a harness with him) the second was able to get the injured climber down and get help. Several surgeries later, and facing more surgery, at least 12 weeks in a wheelchair and lengthy rehab, my friend considers himself lucky that he did not suffer head or internal injuries in the accident.
So, help me out here...what are likely causes all the screws pulling, and what questions can I ask him to clarify the situation so that we can all learn something from this.
Sorry for my own ice climbing ignorance, and thanks for the help.
MM
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kailas
Feb 17, 2005, 2:49 PM
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My suggestion is stay in New Mexico and stop ice climbing because
if you can't negotiate a simple snow ramp then ice climbing isn't for
you. Take up basketball or water skiing.
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maldaly
Feb 17, 2005, 3:06 PM
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Nice response kailas. Love the help and support you can get on this forum. moonshine, sorry to hear about your friend's fall. He's way lucky as I'm sure you know.
I've been ice climbing for 30 years and have never seen ice come out of the barrel of a screw like you describe. I'd love to talk to your friend about it to get some first-hand opinions. It seems to me that the ice must have been really rotten or soft. For that many screws to pull out they couldn't have been either well placed or in good ice. Same thing, I guess. Good on the belayer for catching that fall.
Mal
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gunkjunkie
Feb 17, 2005, 3:07 PM
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It might help if you could provide a sketch detailing where the placements were in relationship to each other.
Deidre
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hibby11
Feb 17, 2005, 3:09 PM
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His friend got hurt and is in great pain and is out from something that i'm sure he loves doing, and all u can say is stay in New Mexico, i say if you dont have any useful information or anything interesting to say, then you should keep your stupid ass comments to yourself.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend and hope that he/she makes a full recovery
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trenchdigger
Feb 17, 2005, 3:10 PM
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This should be taken with a grain of salt as it is coming from a climber with no ice experience...
I would be interested in seeing the fractured regions of ice where the screws pulled. It sounds fishy to me that a 17 cm screw in "solid" ice would not hold a slipping-sliding, very low fall-factor fall. The successive failures indicate similar quality of placements, although it seems from the fall description that the lower screws would be subjected to greater loads in the fall than the top screw.
Were screamers in use on these screws? If so, did they deploy? How experienced was the leader at placing screws and evaluating ice quality?
I wish him a speedy recovery. Thanks for posting.
~Adam~
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cfnubbler
Feb 17, 2005, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: My suggestion is stay in New Mexico and stop ice climbing because if you can't negotiate a simple snow ramp then ice climbing isn't for you.
And my suggestion to you is to refrain from posting such assinine responses. If you have nothing useful to contribute, please don't bother. What an @sshole.
To the O.P.- I hope your friend recovers well.
A few questions come to mind for me...
How long has the leader been climbing ice? I ask because obviously his assessement of the screw placements was off a bit...screws can be hard to evaluate.
Was the pitch in the direct sun? What was the temperature out? Cold can mean many things to many people. How long did it take the leader to complete the pitch?
How certain of the length of the pitch and the distance between the final screw and the ledge from which he fell are you? I ask because these things directly effect the forces generated and the impact force on the pro.
-Nubbler
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taualum23
Feb 17, 2005, 3:17 PM
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In reply to: My suggestion is stay in New Mexico and stop ice climbing because if you can't negotiate a simple snow ramp then ice climbing isn't for you. Take up basketball or water skiing.
I haven't read the rest of the responses, but dude, you are an asshole. If you even read the whole post you would know it happened to a friend of his, he wasn't there. Also, a fellow climber is in a wheelchair. If you have ever actually climbed outside, you know accidents happen to the best of the best (talk to Jack Tackle sometime). Don't be a prick.
To the OP. I would also like to know the experience level of the leader. In REALLY good ice, 4 screws in 40-60 feet pulling....I'd bbe interested in hearing more before making a guess.
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sarcat
Feb 17, 2005, 3:39 PM
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LIke others have already said: kailas your and @ss.
Like others have already said: there are so many variables. For having all the screws pop I'm happy your friend is alive and appears to make a good recovery.
See if you can answer some of the questions already asked and also:
1. What was the type/make of rope?
2. What was the weight of the climber?
3. An evaluation of the ice seems most important. What was it REALLY like?
4. Placement of screws and pro used? Any screamers?
Hope to hear from you soon.
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killclimbz
Feb 17, 2005, 4:00 PM
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I don't care how solid the ice was, ice screws are still not cams or bolts, rockgear in general. If you take a big enough fall the ice will fail. Certainly sounds like this maybe the case.
Sorry to hear about your friend. Those injuries sound horrible, but at least he's alive and is making a recovery. Best wishes.
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moonshine505
Feb 17, 2005, 4:02 PM
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OK some more info...
The leader has 2 seasons of ice climbing, and climbs every weekend during the season. I'll admit I immediately questioned the quality of the placements due to his experience level. I'll look into this a little more. Same goes for his evaluation of the ice, so if he comes back and says it was bomber, that doesn't help us much...
Leader weighs about 150lbs
No screamers were on the screws
They were climbing on a single rope, I'll get the manufacturer/diameter
Kalias, thanks for the constructive feedback
MM
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reno
Feb 17, 2005, 4:17 PM
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Moonshine:
I apologize that kalias is acting like a jerk. We get such people on these forums from time to time, and there's really nothing more to say.
Photos of the screw placements would be nice, but obviously not practical.
My guess, and it's just that... a guess... would be that the ice was less solid than the leader initially believed.
Funny thing, ice: It may look good and be crap, or it may look crap and be good.
I wish your friend a speedy recovery.
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cfnubbler
Feb 17, 2005, 4:19 PM
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I'm really curious to know the temperature and whether the pitch was in direct sunlight...it never ceases to amaze me how fast initially "bomber" screws can melt out in direct sun. Which brings up an interesting question...why do the major screw manufacturers all produce screws with black hangers? Presumably there's a reason, but it seems to contribute to melt-out in my experience.
Maldaly, any insight?
-Nubbler
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maldaly
Feb 17, 2005, 4:55 PM
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killclimz
A few years ago Craigh Luebben and Chris Harmston (then from BD) did some testing of ice screws in real ice in Ouray. They placed screws in a variety of ice below the bridges and dropped (FF2) 80kG weights on them. In some cases the ice screws held to over 15kn if I recall correctly. The test was written up in Climbing or R&I. True, ice screws can be really bad, but, on the other hand, a good screw in good ice is as bomber as any cam or any bolt.
Mal
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lambone
Feb 17, 2005, 5:14 PM
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Question, if he was leading the fourth pitch of the climb, how does he end up in the snow at the bottom of the 1st pitch after the fall? This doesn't make any sense and is a major hole in the account.
In reply to: The leader remarked that while placing the screws, he was amazed at how solid the ice coming through the tube of the screw was, no air bubbles or fractures. The pitch ends on a snowy near-horizontal ledge, from which you set up an anchor. The last screw he placed was about 10' below this ledge. MM
couple things...(10 seasons of ice experience here)
1. Ice doesn't come out of the center of ice screws like that when you place them. It's all chopped and ground up into shards...regardles of how good or crappy the ice is.
2. Not using Screamers and using a single rope is a mistake. higher fall factor on the screws
3. you should allways place one last screw before topping out over a buldge onto a ledge. 10 ft below is quite a ways, you fall pulling onto the ledge and that is a 20 ft fall. 90% of ice climbing falls I read about are pulling the buldge at the end of the climb.
4. You should be very carefull on snow slabs on ledges of ice climbs, they sometimes slide off.
5. The pitch isn't over until you've clipped the anchors.
6. ice climbing is dangerous
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icenwy
Feb 17, 2005, 5:16 PM
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I read that article maldaly, and what I though was the most interesting point was the angle of the screw placement. I believe it said the screws held best when placed with 10-15 degree upward placement. Sometimes this is impossible to do.
To the original poster, I hope your friend(s) make a speedy recovery. Was the ice sun-focked?
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kman
Feb 17, 2005, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: This should be taken with a grain of salt as it is coming from a climber with no ice experience... I would be interested in seeing the fractured regions of ice where the screws pulled. It sounds fishy to me that a 17 cm screw in "solid" ice would not hold a slipping-sliding, very low fall-factor fall. ~Adam~
You might want to rethink this. The screw was placed 10' below the ledge. It wasn't a slipping / sliding fall!! think about it a bit. Once he slid off the ledge that's a 20' fall onto the top screw.
What I want to know is how he ended up on the snowfield at the bottom of the climb if he fell from the top of the 4th pitch. Did the belayer not catch him?? Or are they all super short pitches? Or was the snow field between pitches as in climb a pitch walk to the next pitch ect...?
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cfnubbler
Feb 17, 2005, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: 2. Not using Screamers and using a single rope is a mistake. higher fall factor on the screws
I agree on the importance of screamers. In the last 5 years or so, I've gradually transitioned to using them on all screws. Why not? But screamers have absolutely nothing to do with fall factors. Are you referring to peak impact forces?
In reply to: I read that article maldaly, and what I though was the most interesting point was the angle of the screw placement. I believe it said the screws held best when placed with 10-15 degree upward placement.
No...what the article said was that in high quality ice, the preferred angle in the testing was ~10 degrees beneath perpendicular to the ice surface. The idea was that in good ice, it was best to rely on the threads of screws to resist pullout-loads rather than the barrel to resist a shear-load.
In most other cases, the traditional ~10 degrees above perpendicular was a better bet. But it also said that it was very difficult to judge ice and placement quality consistently. After 15 years on the ice, I definitely agree.
-Nubbler
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moonshine505
Feb 17, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Lambone...good catch, I think there's an error in there. I know he had to be lowered only once to reach the ground, which I assumed placed him lowering down pitch 1...but then the math wouldn't add up if he was leading pitch 4. I think this is an error either in his re-telling or my own memort, and he was in fact leading pitch three, but as with the other questions here, I'll clarify for better information.
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icenwy
Feb 17, 2005, 6:06 PM
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Thanks for clearing it up nubbler, it's been awhile since I read the article. That's is why I didn't say it conclusively when I made the post.
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fishbelly
Feb 17, 2005, 6:26 PM
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Good Job you survived.
Make it a learning experiance.
Things happen we can not control. We choose how to react and go on untill the deck gets reshuffled again.
There are no good ice placements. Until they are tested by a fall.
Some may inspire more than others, But it is only ice formed at random, melts refreezes at various temps and densities.
Try to get odds fron vegas on a ice placement
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tuna
Feb 17, 2005, 6:55 PM
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On the comment about the ice coming out of the screws when he placed them.
The ice gets ground up yes. But it is left inside the screw until you either blow it out or you reuse the screw. It could be your friend was placing the screws and judging the ice that was from the prior usage where it has a chance to thaw slightly then refreeze. It might have led him to believe he was screwing into hard ice by the extra force needed to screw the screw in by forcing out the old frozen ice from the core.
Tell your friend to do his PT and I hope he will be out climbing again soon.
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anykineclimb
Feb 18, 2005, 4:22 AM
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Hmm, very good point tuna. Never even considered that.
Malcome, I read that article in Rock and Ice(?). Very interesting.
I was surprised that a lot of gear failed during testing, but the screws themselves held.
OP, sounds like your friend landed on a snowy ledge, not quite bottom, but big enough for him to land on?
Hope he get better soon.
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johnhemlock
Feb 18, 2005, 4:32 AM
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kind of cheesy to quote myself but I snipped this out of another discussion regarding the article (Climbing, Nov 1997) being discussed in this thread. . .
In reply to: Was re-reading the results of an old drop test that Craig Leubben and Chris Harmston did in Ouray about 10 years ago. They heaved 185 pound weights off the waterfalls and ledgered the results. In drops of 16 to 28 feet, the screw ripped out of the ice 7 out of 12 times. Carabiners broke 3 times. Admittedly, these tests were harsh (static belay) but even after they added a soft catch, Leubben wrote that, "I was occasionally shocked by having what I thought was a bomber piece fail at a low load." Haven't seen a similar test on newer the newer screw designs but thought it was interesting. As far as brand names, Leubben's point was that the quality of ice is much more important than the brand of screw. None of the screws (except an Ushba) broke at loads of less than 3000 pounds in good ice. They ALL pulled in bad ice. Get the ones that go in easiest. Not exactly apropos for this thread but I thought the results (though somewhat incomplete) were still fairly empirical.
I guess Leubben's quote about bomber pro failing at low load is appropriate to this discussion. I hope your friend makes a speedy recovery!
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lambone
Feb 18, 2005, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: On the comment about the ice coming out of the screws when he placed them. The ice gets ground up yes. But it is left inside the screw until you either blow it out or you reuse the screw. It could be your friend was placing the screws and judging the ice that was from the prior usage where it has a chance to thaw slightly then refreeze. It might have led him to believe he was screwing into hard ice by the extra force needed to screw the screw in by forcing out the old frozen ice from the core.
Um, not exactly....
...some of the ice comes out of the end of the screw as you are placing it. It doesn't tell you much, but if it stops coming out it means you have hit a hollow spot. If there is prior ice in the screw from a previous pitch it is nearly impossible to place unless removed first. This is ice screw 101 stuff...
In reply to: But screamers have absolutely nothing to do with fall factors. Are you referring to peak impact forces?
yes, that's what I meant.
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