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boneware
Feb 27, 2005, 4:24 AM
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Before anyone starts flaming me for this, let me just explain. i am on the road, have very limited internet access and every time i try and do a search on the site for "grigri belay trad" or any other version of that question or actually any question at all it won't work. Soooo i am relying on one of you wonderful people to please point me in the right direction.
Just wanting to know, what the word on this is. I got into the discussion with a friend the other day, and we couldn't come to a final answer of why it was either ok or not ok to belay trad with a grigri. We both remember being told not to at some time in the past but the exact reasoning why we couldn't remember.
I have friends who do so quite often, i have kind of stayed away from it, the main reason being that i don't really use grigri's much.
Any imput would be great.
Thank you for your assistance.
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glyrocks
Feb 27, 2005, 4:55 AM
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GriGris put more of the force of the fall on the gear. The auto-locking doesn't allow any rope to slip through, which would dissipate some amount of force.
However, to get some discussion other than people telling you to go read some book, I usually don't have much rope slip through my ATC on a lead fall. I know it's still more dynamic than a GriGri, but I wonder if a dynamic belay through jumping up at the moment of impact wouldn't make the difference neglible. Maybe? Don't know, just a thought...
I don't recall any other reason, but I suspect there may be more, tossed in with a few contrived ones.
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kalcario
Feb 27, 2005, 5:18 AM
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This topic has been done here before as I recall, someone brought up the fact that Petzl advises against it in their product brochure, which believe it or not sent me scurrying across the street to REI to read it, and I lamely tried to counter with the fact that grigris are by far the predominant device of choice of wall climbers, whose protection is more often than not marginal at best. My penultimate parry/thrust was along the lines that, in garden variety trad climbing, I couldn't imagine that the (admitted) added impact force caused by a grigri would cause bomber nuts and camalots to come ripping out of cracks; then again, on multi pitch trad where weight is at a premium, you're using an ATC anyway. Then I logged off and went to bed.
Despite the fact that it was 2 in the afternoon.
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gunksgoer
Feb 27, 2005, 5:23 AM
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one reason so many ppl say not to use a gri gri for trad is that its so darn heavy, it weighs more than most cams. the other problem with it is that its soooo anoying to descend with, it only works on single fixed lines or for lowering yourself. carrying both a reverso and gri gri tho i think can be a good idea for multipitch, but its all up to you.
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rockmaninoff
Feb 27, 2005, 5:30 AM
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1. Increases forces on gear as mentioned. No, a jump wouldn't compensate.
2. Heavier as mentioned.
3. Expensive.
4. Just one more thing to clutter your rack.
5. A pain in the arse to rappell with it.
6. Limits rope size.
But, can be useful in emergency situations/hauling.
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areyoumydude
Feb 27, 2005, 4:38 PM
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I use my grigri for everything from sport to bigwall.
CLIMB MORE. THINK LESS.
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topher
Feb 27, 2005, 4:48 PM
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truth be ttold i would have to say that your aok using a gri gri for trad climbing.. one really has to ask them selves.. how many times have you actualy used a dynamic belay.. and the difference between the force that goes to the peice when using a gri gir and a atc is small... the only totaly valid reason that gri girs are not really used for trad climbing is that you typicaly have to rapple well gear climbing and thats just a pain in the but on a gri gri... so ya if your out just craging (or sport trading) i say go nuts with the gri gri millions of other people do it.. but if your going to link some pitches together leav that heavy pice of metal at home and grab your atc type device..
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irockclimbtoo
Feb 27, 2005, 11:31 PM
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ab
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kimgraves
Feb 28, 2005, 1:06 AM
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I first came across this issue while watching Rich Heaps’ great film “Blood, Sweat & Bagels,” about his and partner Neil Bentley’s attempt to free climb the Salathé Wall. They used a Grigri – and took countless falls on it. My partner and I look at each other – “You’re not supposed to use a Grigri for trad,” we say to each other.
The whole issue of providing a dynamic belay by letting rope slip is I think a red herring. When your leader falls you hold on as tight as you can so you don’t loose control of the rope. Any issue of “Accidents in North America,” that you pick up, has an account of someone having the rope slip through their belay device and burning the belayer’s hand so badly that they loose control - a good reason to wear gloves. The new BD ATC-XP even has “teeth” on it to make for a more static catch. So my feeling is that I want my second to use a Grigri for trad. Either that or wear a glove. That way I feel safer that they won’t loose control – and a momentary distraction won’t lead to disaster.
The down side is that you still have to carry a rap device to deal with the double rope issue. I use my old ATC-XP for that!
Best, Kim
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jt512
Feb 28, 2005, 1:08 AM
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In reply to: truth be ttold i would have to say that your aok using a gri gri for trad climbing.. one really has to ask them selves.. how many times have you actualy used a dynamic belay..
Routinely. I'd have to ask myself how many times I use a static belay (rarely).
In reply to: and the difference between the force that goes to the peice when using a gri gir and a atc is small...
Of course it depends on your technique, but a dynamic belay about halves the impact force, if I correctly recall the results published recently in R + I.
-Jay
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jt512
Feb 28, 2005, 1:25 AM
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In reply to: The whole issue of providing a dynamic belay by letting rope slip is I think a red herring. When your leader falls you hold on as tight as you can so you don’t loose control of the rope.
But on a severe fall, an ATC will be dynamic no matter how hard you hold onto the rope. Non-autolocking belay devices, by design, limit the maximum impact force. Grigris, for all intents and purposes, give a completely static belay, even for a factor-2 fall.
-Jay
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mlb30675
Feb 28, 2005, 1:40 AM
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I have used a grigri for trad for years. They are great when your doing most/all of the leading. You simply attach the grigri to the anchor and you can watch you second flail all they want. I have never felt the need to lead belay with them, my ATC (or whatever device I bought that week... anyone want to buy a once used belay device?... ok... I admit it.. I have a 'weakness') has always worked fine, and I don’t like taking my hand off the rope to feed rope for the leader. I can, and so at times but not that often. I think the added convince of the grigri has always outweighed the extra weight, and having to carry an ATC has never been a problem. I think the day the extra weight is too much I should stop climbing. If you want a device that will do pretty much everything and is light weight, try the TRE. I love mine. Single, doubles, twins… ‘auto’ locking, easy to attach to the anchor, works well on it all. I really don’t like long repels with it on ropes other than my twins… but I find that I’ll just carry some tubular device or ‘borrow’ my partners… “hey… want to try this TRE…it’s really really cool!”
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ryan112ryan
Feb 28, 2005, 3:44 AM
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In reply to: 1. Increases forces on gear as mentioned. No, a jump wouldn't compensate. 2. Heavier as mentioned. 3. Expensive. 4. Just one more thing to clutter your rack. 5. A pain in the arse to rappell with it. 6. Limits rope size. But, can be useful in emergency situations/hauling.
but don't forget, people who own them, # 3,4, and 6 don't really count. as for the wheight, im not overly worried at the point as for consideration number 5, ill be bringing my ATC with me reguardless (back up) so not cnsidering the above considerations for these reasons, why else would it be bad/is it much of an issue
In reply to: In reply to: truth be ttold i would have to say that your aok using a gri gri for trad climbing.. one really has to ask them selves.. how many times have you actualy used a dynamic belay.. Routinely. I'd have to ask myself how many times I use a static belay (rarely). -Jay
im kinda in the same boat, but then again i haven't had to catch any really big falls
In reply to: In reply to: The whole issue of providing a dynamic belay by letting rope slip is I think a red herring. When your leader falls you hold on as tight as you can so you don’t loose control of the rope. But on a severe fall, an ATC will be dynamic no matter how hard you hold onto the rope. Non-autolocking belay devices, by design, limit the maximum impact force. Grigris, for all intents and purposes, give a completely static belay, even for a factor-2 fall. -Jay
if you have a big enough fall you are inevitably going to get rope burn and it can burn you pretty well, so to this comment i pose the question: do you belay leaders with a glove?
FROM th RGOLD COLLECTION:
In reply to: The most interesting issue here is gloves for belaying. Almost nobody uses them. The reason is that it is very rare that anyone has to hold a serious fall, meaning a leader fall with high fall factor (say bigger than 1) and very little gear between the belayer and the top piece to provide additional friction. Many climbers make it through an entire career and consider themselves "experienced" without ever having even one experience of this sort. Because such falls occur so rarely, not using gloves adds a very small additional risk, probably quite a bit smaller than other risks that are routinely undertaken. The prospect of serious burns and possible loss of control is very remote, and very few climbers view gloves as a critical part of belay safety. Personally, I wear 'em, even though my friends think I'm a wussie. My position is that I should be able to hold 100% of all leader falls, not 99.5%. Part of this comes from having learned back in the Pleistocene, when we tied dinosaurs to the end of the rope and dropped them for belay practice. There is no one who has actually caught big falls who would think of trying to do it without gloves; it is possible, but it involves heroic hanging on in the presence of extreme pain and destruction of flesh. The belayer who manages this may very well be much more seriously injured than the leader, and many perfectly honorable souls will simply not be able to hang on. I don't want to drop the leader if such a situation happens, and I sure don't want the possibly permanent scarring from the burns I'd get from hanging on. By the way, I think I am one of the relatively few who has been called on to stop a factor 2 fall directly onto the belay. No problems for me or the leader---we went right back to climbing. Had I been bare-handed, the story would have been a very different one.
just some food for thought :)
-Ryan
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johnhenry
Feb 28, 2005, 4:16 AM
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The type of rock could be a primary consideration. I would be much more likely to use a Grigri for trad in granite than in desert sandstone.
Judicious use of screamers can offset the static catch.
Advantages:
1.)Belaying a second with the Gri is the cat's meow and lets you relax more. That alone justifies its weight for me often times.
2.)A factor 2 fall off the belay will be much more managible with a Grigri than a tube/slot device.
3.)It is great for makeshift hauling, ascending, or emergency lowering device.
Climb safe...
john
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topher
Feb 28, 2005, 4:19 AM
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im sorry but i fail to belive that having about 2-5cm of rope slipping through the belay device halfs the impact force... prove me wrong but that just seems nuts... if your talking about a perfect jump at the right second then i can see it lowering but not halfing the forces... also in the end you have alot more weight hanging from the peice and then more wiggling as the belayer comes back to earth..
on a side note i dont use my gri gri for trad climbing but i wouldnt not if i had it..
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alonfw
Feb 28, 2005, 4:59 AM
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ryan112ryan wrote:
"FROM th RGOLD COLLECTION:
....
My position is that I should be able to hold 100% of all leader falls, not 99.5%.
...."
I think a very good point. So what about the catastrophie that happens during which you take your brake hand off the rope, or get knocked unconcious???
....hence I feel a Gri Gri or other autolocking (and therefore "static") device, is mandatory for traditional multipitch climbing. Gri Gris have saved peoples lives in "catastrophic" situations, pick up a few ANAMs and take a gander.
Alon :)
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kalcario
Feb 28, 2005, 5:10 AM
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*....hence I feel a Gri Gri or other autolocking (and therefore "static") device, is mandatory for traditional multipitch climbing.*
I would'nt go that far; I've done Grade V free climbs in Yosemite with no belay device at all, just a locking biner and munter hitches to belay with. I wouldn't take a grigri up Astroman for instance, the extra weight would, IMO, increase the chance of taking the big fall that you're worried about catching in the first place.
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ryan112ryan
Feb 28, 2005, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: I wouldn't take a grigri up Astroman for instance, the extra weight would, IMO, increase the chance of taking the big fall that you're worried about catching in the first place.
im not too sure about that, Grigri wheight 250 grams...about 4 carbs (normal lockers)
In reply to: I think a very good point. So what about the catastrophie that happens during which you take your brake hand off the rope, or get knocked unconcious??? ....hence I feel a Gri Gri or other autolocking (and therefore "static") device, is mandatory for traditional multipitch climbing. Gri Gris have saved peoples lives in "catastrophic" situations, pick up a few ANAMs and take a gander. Alon :)
mandatory, mabye not.....but it is a very solid argument.
i just look on the actual box that my gri gri cam in, right on the back, it has a drawing of somone belaying some with a gri gri on lead. if the manufacture states that it is a safe thing to do, specifically a reputable one, such as Petzl, who have reasearched and tested the gear, i feel comfotable using it in such fashion as it is what it is intended for. i would really like to hear from someone about the real diffrence in stresses on gear placements, specifically with reffrences to articals or research
BTW: can you guys learn to quote :)
-Ryan
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slackwareuser
May 13, 2005, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: im sorry but i fail to belive that having about 2-5cm of rope slipping through the belay device halfs the impact force... prove me wrong but that just seems nuts...
I've never had to catch a high factor fall, and I'm relatively inexperienced too, but IMHO you pay out 2-5 _meters_ of rope for a real dynamic catch. In fact you should reserve 5m rope (finish the pitch with 5m of rope left) if you intend to give dynamic belay (e.g. crappy pro all the way).
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alpnclmbr1
May 13, 2005, 4:27 PM
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This thread gets a trophy in my book.
The too dumb to be true award.
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shakylegs
May 13, 2005, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: im sorry but i fail to belive that having about 2-5cm of rope slipping through the belay device halfs the impact force... prove me wrong but that just seems nuts... I've never had to catch a high factor fall, and I'm relatively inexperienced too, but IMHO you pay out 2-5 _meters_ of rope for a real dynamic catch. In fact you should reserve 5m rope (finish the pitch with 5m of rope left) if you intend to give dynamic belay (e.g. crappy pro all the way).
I believe that's called a French belay. Might have to change it to a Hungarian belay.
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tradklime
May 13, 2005, 5:52 PM
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Playing with the Petzl fall simulator, using a gri gri for belay roughly doubles the forces, when compared to a reverso.
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dynosore
May 13, 2005, 6:29 PM
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I just don't see how this is an issue for most climbers. Unless you're running it out over sketchy placements, and most folks don't do this. Does anyone have a real life story about gear ripping when they fell on lead, and a grigri being a contributing factor? I've seen plenty of stories about folks dropped while being belayed with ATC style devices....
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tradklime
May 13, 2005, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: I've seen plenty of stories about folks dropped while being belayed with ATC style devices....
Using a grigri WILL increase the force on the protection in the event of a fall (when compared to a tube style device). Whether this is significant will entirely depend on the specific circumstances.
There is no right or wrong answer here, but people should be making an informed decision, and make that decision based on the type of climbing, protection, rock, etc. etc. etc. they will be experiencing, and what balance of risk - convenience is right for them.
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