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pbcowboy77
Jun 21, 2002, 5:36 AM
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So, I want to start trad. I'm looking at doing Tahquits & Suicide, J-tree,and whatever eles I can do in So Cal. What do you sugest for a starting cam rack( brand and sizes). I don't need nuts or runners and all that, got most of it. I'm not poor but I don't own a country, so I can spend a bit.
(I so need to get out of sport and into trad)
Thanx
-Zac
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krustyklimber
Jun 21, 2002, 5:56 AM
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Black diamond from #3 down to #1 and Aliens smaller than that.
Jeff
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ffaallliinngg
Jun 21, 2002, 6:18 AM
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I second the Black Diamonds. Get a 3.5 while you're at it.
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bmgard
Jun 21, 2002, 7:25 AM
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I agree although i like the .75 BD too. If you need some cheap cams look at he trango Flex cams or the Rock empires. There good cams for the price but not as nice as the BDs. You might also consider the Wild country Forged friend #2-4 if you don't mind a riged stem.
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jt512
Jun 21, 2002, 6:51 PM
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I concur on the small Aliens. You can skip the two smallest ones for now. Get the three next bigger ones (up to the orange).
I disagree about the Black Diamond Camalots. Their wider camming range is not an advantage. Their weight is a disadvantage. I like Metolius Power Cams. They are much lighter than Camalots, which means you can carry more of them for the same weight. This is a good thing. Think about it. Say you plan to place 12 cams on the pitch: 9 on the route itself and 3 for a belay anchor. Then you need to carry at least 12 cams, probaby a few more, since you won't know exactly what sizes you'll need. Now, you can either carry up 12 heavy BD Camalots or 12 light Metolius cams. See? There is little advantage to having cams with wider camming range; there is a big advantage to carrying less weight.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-06-21 11:53 ]
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camhead
Jun 21, 2002, 8:19 PM
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Ditto the Metollius. They weigh less than BD, and have a slightly decreased cam angle that actually gives them more holding power in the rock. They are easy to over-cam, however.
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froggy
Jun 21, 2002, 8:23 PM
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I would go with BD and Aliens too
I love the trigger on the Black Diamond Camalots and the Aliens fit into places that no other cam will - and they have a great trigger as well!
Best bet though is to follow some other Trad leaders and see what you like as you clean their pro
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rocknpowda
Jun 21, 2002, 8:34 PM
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I say get a set of something cheap-just not KONG's- then add different brands in different sizes as you see what you like. Sometimes one brand of cam will fit in a specific placement a lot better than another brand even though they're the same size.For this reason, it's nice to have a choice of single stem or "U" stem cams when you get to a tricky placement. However, I reccomend metolious small cams; the action will stay nice longer than most other small cams on the market.
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detourdave
Jun 21, 2002, 8:35 PM
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Greats suggestions on cams above (I have BD also). Pick up a few large hexes - they sound like cow bells on your rack. They are good for large placements, cheap, and make a great piece of escape gear if you need to bail from a route due to rain or a poor rap anchor that you want to back-up. Sport routes almost always have nice double bolted belays at the top but trad routes more than often have a ratty piece of brittle, sunbaked webbing tied around a shrub. I have used a $5 hex rather than a $60 cam to back off a route when a downpour broke (fiction climbing of course ) out and I have one when my second couldn't send the pitch and we had to bail below the belay due to darkness.
Cleaning tool - Ushba makes a nice titanium cleaning tool - it is light and has a rounded plateon the end so you can bash your hand against it like a hammer to disslodge a stubborn piece.
Get some big pieces. You will be tempted to skip them due to cost but you are as likily to find large features as small features as your only natural protection opportunities (depending on the rock). If the big cams are too pricey, try a Big Bro (and of course, the aforementioned beefy hexes).
Another piece I use a lot are my Loweballs. I am not into RX runouts and I like to have something for everyting on my rack. Nothing protects a tiny crack better, well, nothing else vene fits into a tiny crack clean. They don't have the holding power so you may want a screamer or two also if you wind up running out on one.
I like to keep a small multi-tool on my rack also - the pliers are handy for stuck carabiner gates, loosening though knots in webbing, cutting webbing and cord, etc.
Oh and most importantly, the non-protection piece of trad gear that is essential to any trad rack - the headlamp. If you start into big multi-pitch trad, it is only a matter of time before you get stuck several pitches up on a huge route in the dark.
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stevematthys
Jun 22, 2002, 5:07 AM
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i have bd camalots from sizes 3-.75 and aliens below
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joemor
Jun 22, 2002, 5:26 AM
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bd are good down to .5 i think thats when the duble axel changes to a single...
joe
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samshafer
Jun 23, 2002, 10:29 AM
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Detourdave, sounds like you've been there, man. Listen to his suggestions Newbie, especially the bit about the headlamp. Petzl makes a nice LED one that runs on 2-AAA batts. & lasts like 70+ hours on those!
If you're fairly new leading, you'll be using mostly larger pro in general since the easier routes have larger cracks!
For smaller crack, higher grade climbs, I like my new Microcamalots & am hoping to buy a set of Trango Ballnutz or Loweballs soon. For now I have to settle for tiny stoppers & Steel nuts.
Just don't buy ABC cams. My 12?-year old set was cheap but has always sucked.
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pattray
Jun 23, 2002, 1:27 PM
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A set of Aliens and a set of BD cams, for Tahquitz you might want to double up on the #1BD #2BD #3BD and the #4 BD
For Suicide well just bring a dozen or so quickdraws and a Big pair of balls
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pir8penguin
Jun 23, 2002, 5:10 PM
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i'd double up the BD camalots like he said, but up to #3.5 only one #4. i prefer aliens to micros, just preference. both are safe if placed right.
i'd also rather have the camalots over others because you (as a newbie) may place a 3 instead of a 3.5 in one place where you should have, and hte 3.5 ccan still go down to the uppper range of the 3 farther up the crack. rarely happens if you place smart though.
buy some nuts and bolts too, BD makes good ones ("hexes" are the bolts, "stoppers" are the nuts), they're great (and cheap). i've taken serious whippers on well placed hexes (BD...like yesterday afternoon!!) and they don't move.
oh, bring plenty of slings.
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jt512
Jun 23, 2002, 7:23 PM
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Quote:
i'd double up the BD camalots like he said, but up to #3.5 only one #4.
Yeah, buy a double set of the heaviest cams on the market!
-Jay
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pbcowboy77
Jun 23, 2002, 9:14 PM
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Hey thanks for all the advice butt I have everything except cams(slings, nuts, biners,oh and yes a headlamp) so is weight that much of a factor, cause I checked out both the BDs and the power cams at REI . I kinda like the BDs trigger more than the power cams.
[ This Message was edited by: pbcowboy77 on 2002-06-23 14:16 ]
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bmgard
Jun 23, 2002, 10:05 PM
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Weight is an issue. That being said i still like the Bds better then the Metoulius. (i own both). But for cams finger size or smaller i like the double ("U") stem. On these small placements you sometimes can't get more then one finger on the cam making it very hard to place and clean the BDs where as a metoulius would slide right in.
It all comes down to your personal preferance. If your woried about wieght go down to the store take out 3 BDs and 3 similar sized Metoulius and compare the weight. The BDs will weigh more but it may be something your willing to deal with.
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sagarmatha
Jun 23, 2002, 11:32 PM
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All cams mentioned in the replies above are good stuff, and as previously said in some of the replies, it comes down to preference. Trying some different types of cams on the rock before you buy is the way to go (eg. seconding with someone else's rack)!
Cheers
[ This Message was edited by: sagarmatha on 2002-06-23 16:35 ]
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jt512
Jun 24, 2002, 3:46 AM
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Well, Metolius was just a suggestion. There are a lot of other cams that weigh less than Camalots.
Don't buy your gear at REI unless you know exactly what you want and, by some miracle, they have it. If you live in SoCal, make your major purchases at Nomad Ventures. They have the largest variety of gear and their salespeople are among the most experienced climbers in California. (REI gear sales people aren't usually even climbers.)
The issue with Camalots isn't weight per se. It is the extra weight you'll be carrying in order to carry enough cams of the size you need. Say the crack you are climbing varies from .5 to 2 inches, and you want a total of 8 or 9 cams covering that range. For Camalots, you will need triples of .5 to #2. For Metolius (or just about any other brand) you will only need doubles (since they have narrower camming ranges) to cover the same range. You will be carrying less total weight for the same coverage, and you won't have to borrow gear. Notice, unlike BD claims, their wider camming range is a disadvantage, not an advantage.
-Jay
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bmgard
Jun 24, 2002, 6:04 AM
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JT512- I'm sorry but i don't see why you'd have to carry more camalots. If you cary a double set of BD # .5-2. You'd cover crack sizes 19.5mm-64.0mm. To cover this with Metoulius you'd carry #3-7 (18.41mm-64.01mm). That means you need 5 Metoulius to cover the same range as 4 Camalots.
Now i own all these cams except for the .5 BD. I perfer the BD. I'm the first to admit that they are heavy. But I don't see why you would need more cams. Sorry I've heard the argument before but it has never made sense to me. How can the larger range be a disadvantage.
All sizes were taken off the REI website.
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samshafer
Jun 24, 2002, 8:50 AM
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Personally, I like to alternate between Cams & passive gear (stoppers, hexes,etc) to save my Cams for any desparate situations when I need to slam something in fast. I look at it as good training also to try to get by without using a Cam for every placement but to use the lighter (& cheaper) solid pro.
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pir8penguin
Jun 24, 2002, 11:34 AM
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so their heavy. deal.
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pattray
Jun 24, 2002, 12:11 PM
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If you like the BDs trigger and they feel good thats the way to go, I'm the same way, i own both BDs and Metolius, you don't need to worry about "extra weight" see Bmgards post.
Goodluck with your trad climbing, If you are looking for some good climbs at Tahquitz PM me.
Pat.
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jt512
Jun 24, 2002, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
I'm sorry but i don't see why you'd have to carry more camalots.
I didn't say that you'd have to carry more camalots. I said if you want to carry, say, 9 cams in the range of .5 to 2.5 inches, you will have to carry more weight if you are carrying camalots vs. Metolius.
Quote:
How can the larger range be a disadvantage.
Because it doesn't usually allow you to carry fewer cams. You end up carrying the number of cams you think you'll need on the pitch, regardless of the range of the individual cams. If the crack varies in width from .5 to 2 inches, and you judge that you'll need 9 pieces, then, well, you need 9 pieces. Now, you can either carry 9 heavy pieces or 9 light ones.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-06-24 08:44 ]
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rocknpowda
Jun 24, 2002, 4:28 PM
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If weight is such an issue, go sport climbing. Your rack is always going to be cumbersome regardless of the kind of cams you have.
If you do go with BD, you'll also have to replace the triggers more often as they seemed to have designed them with too thin of cable. Thin cable = more money for BD in replacement triggers. If you know anyone with a swager, have them swage your BD's with a larger cable-then you'll never have to replace them at all. I have some BD cams and find that they are a good compliment the other brands of cams on my rack.
I'll say again-If your going to have multiple sets of cams, get different brands-some brands will fit certain placements better than others.
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