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genlock
Jun 22, 2002, 3:42 AM
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I know this has been covered a lot, so I`m only asking for links to other thread so I can learn... but if you want to add more to what`s available, feel free!
I want lots of informations about soloing. I`ve passed through a lot of pages in general and aid forum and couldn't find what I was looking for. Remember the search is down
Here what I wanted to find
General to specific infos on multipitches solo climb.
how to do the famous Clove Hitch on a biner to solo.
and an answer to my stoopid question of the post.. ( as usual.. youi `ll get to know me..)
---------- Stoopid Question(s) of the post -----
If you multi pitch solo, do you need more than one rope? If no, then how do you bring the rope back up to the bext belay station if you have some safety/backup knots on protection you`ve placed on your way up? How do you retreive the protection for the next pitch?
------------------------------------------------
THANKS a million.
Right now, my rightfoot is hurting bad because of a fall I took while bouldering, so I keep learning new stuff while healing..
-Eric
edited for clarity and reformating
[ This Message was edited by: genlock on 2002-06-21 20:43 ]
[ This Message was edited by: genlock on 2002-06-21 20:44 ]
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krustyklimber
Jun 22, 2002, 4:35 AM
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Eric,
Do you want to aid or free solo? If it's aid then go here http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=11291&forum=19
I have posted all the links I could that will get you the info on solo aid, I believe you can find a link in one of those threads that covers how to modify a Gri-Gri for roped free solo climbing.
Make very sure you know how and what to do before soloing, it is the territory of the advanced climber, and if you have any doubts about your ropesmanship or rescue skills DON'T DO IT!
And NEVER solo on clove hitches, this can and has resulted in deaths!
Jeff
P.S. You didn't look very hard did you? All these links are in one post called "continuous solo loop", but that's O.K. you know now.
*edited* to apologize to genlock for my snide comments
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-06-25 00:33 ]
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bigwalling
Jun 22, 2002, 6:07 AM
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Arrrggg, clove hitches suck! Do not use them. I don't know how you could die though? They are pretty bomber if you use two of them. The Barrnet system with prusiks is total CRAP! It wil get you killed if you aren't lucky. You should use the gri gri with prusiks. Note: This is not the same thing as the barrnet system. The barrnet system uses the prusiks to belay. The gri gri uses them on bomber peises to re belay. It is the gri gri that stops the rope not the prusiks.
Jeff gave you some really good links to other stuff and gri gri thing. But here is one comparing the clove hitch and gri gri.
[ This Message was edited by: bigwalling on 2002-06-21 23:09 ]
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apollodorus
Jun 22, 2002, 6:22 AM
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I learned to solo the Better Way on pitch 24 of the Excalibur. Dr Piton told me to use the Gri-Gri, and I led P24 and P25 together. Thanks, Doc. I never would have tried something new 2400 feet off the deck without your help.
The Gri-Gri is the WAY better way to solo. The rope feeds itself. The only problem is when you are very far out on a pitch (for me, it was about 40m, or 120 ft), and the rope starts to backslide through the Gri-Gri.
At this point, you need to rebelay the rope using a clove hitch to a bomber piece. And then you start afresh with zero slack, and keep going. I didn't rebelay, but I kept pulling the slack that fell through the Gri-Gri. Bad idea. Dr. Piton told me to rebelay, but I was too stupid to listen.
Listen to the Master. You use the Gri-Gri, and then rebelay the rope to bomber pieces with a clove hitch. About every fifty feet, rebelay to a bomber piece. Also, if you are going over a scratchy piece of rock, rebelay. It will save your rope.
Dr. Piton is not just a Wall Doctor, he is the Master of the Shit. You either listen to him, or you step in it.
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bigwalling
Jun 22, 2002, 6:28 AM
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Yes he is the master! That guy has made my life so much easier with the stuff I have learned here. We all owe him alot. Where is he? Is he still in yosemite or where?
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krustyklimber
Jun 22, 2002, 8:15 AM
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I thought the master went into great detail (including squashing a BWT) about how and why not to rebelay to bomber pieces with the clove hitch. But to do so with 5mm prussik cords, set in a way as to not adversely effect (or is it affect?) the dynamic properties of the rope. And how the farther out a pitch you go the longer these cords need to be, this was the part he said was critical to the whole continuous loop system being safe or not.
It's all in the post Jake has linked up above! Good job Jake, Ive been needing that thread, so many people are trying to die on a clove hitch lately. There are better knots people!!!
Jake when you take a giant whipper on the top clove hitch and it melts to the point of failure, and you land at the base of the crag with the other one still locked to your harness you will not be happy. When the first one fails there is NO LONGER ANYTHING holding you to the rope that is going through the pro and to the anchors below!!!
Apollo I noticed you mentioned this clove hitch thing the other day, and had to wonder how many beers you'd had. Do those pitches traverse radically? And if you had rebelayed with a clove hitch how would you have lowered out while cleaning the pitch? Pete said I would need up to ten of these "rebelay slings" on an average pitch, and would rebelay about as often as I would tag. Were you using the loop system?
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-06-22 01:27 ]
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samshafer
Jun 22, 2002, 10:19 AM
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You covered a lot of ground & have lots of questions Genlock:???:. I think you should first learn to lead well with a belayer for several years before trying to rope solo...just my personal opinion & experience.
And as for solo devices, the Gri-Gri was never intended to be used as such. One problem with any such camming device, including even the Soloist, is that once it locks up (like when you weight it)it's really hard to safely unlock while hanging on it. That's why I only recommend the Silent Partner for rope solo leading & the Soloist for rope solo toproping. Both are designed to use for rope solo.
The SP is a centrifugal clutch that only locks up when you fall (thus spinning the clutch fast enough). As such it feels less secure on toprope. The Soloist is a simple cam device that locks up every time you pull the rope thru and can give a nice, tight belay on toprope. It requires a chest harness.
Krustyclimber is right; I have switched from the unsafe clove hitch hanging on gear to using prussiks to hold the rope weight as recommended by Passthepitonspete. I feel much better about my system now.
As for how to climb multi-pitches; you can either trail an extra rope & carry extra pro or I prefer to just climb each pitch twice! The second time on toprope is almost relaxing after doing the lead.
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russwalling
Jun 22, 2002, 5:36 PM
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Krusty writes:
>>And NEVER solo on clove hitches,
>>this can and has resulted in deaths!
Say Krusty.... can you cite 3 verified examples/instances for me? This is the first I have heard of this.... ever. Any info on the "melting" of clove hitches and then death would also be appreciated.
adios,
Russ
[ This Message was edited by: russwalling on 2002-06-22 10:37 ]
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bigwalling
Jun 22, 2002, 6:14 PM
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Krusty are you talking about soloing with clove hitches on the harness or using them on gear within the pitch? I haven't heard of anybody dieing like this. But you are right about that if it melted the rope on the first one the backup would be worthless. But how the heck would you burn through your rope? That is alot of friction to do that.
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krustyklimber
Jun 23, 2002, 4:43 AM
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Russ,
No I can not cite any precedences at all, and I may have blown this whole thing out of proportion. Maybe my concerns are better suited to the clove hitch as an anchor tie in.
I believe JMlangford did post a thread that had something to do with the death of a pair climbers who fell to their deaths from a rope failure caused by a clove hitch. This happened when the leader fell directly onto his belayer, who was anchored with a clove hitch, and the force of the factor two fall was catastrophic.
The clove hitch is a hitch and is thought to start slipping (with climbing rope on a single 'biner), by some, with as little a load as 500lbs. If my math is right, at around 125lbs I only have to fall four feet to make those kinds of forces.
It's not so much that the clove hitch is known to be unsafe, but with soloing on the rise I don't want it to become known for it.
We know better knots that don't have the possibilities of failure as the clove hitch, and I consider myself lucky to have never had it become a problem. And was hoping to save some others from problems before they had them either. I was only passing on advise given to me that seemed logical when I heard it!
Russ, do you have a drop tower? Maybe you could give us some real facts concerning this issue, it's blindingly apparent I have none!
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-06-25 00:37 ]
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russwalling
Jun 23, 2002, 5:45 AM
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Krusty writes:
>>No I can not cite any precedences at all, and I may have blown this whole thing out of proportion. Maybe my concerns are better suited to the clove hitch as an anchor tie in. >>
Either way I beg to differ.
>>I believe JMlangford did post a thread that had something to do with the death of a pair climbers who fell to their deaths from a rope failure caused by a clove hitch. This happened when the leader fell directly onto his belayer, who was anchored with a clove hitch, and the force of the factor two fall was catastrophic.>The clove hitch is a hitch and is thought to start slipping (with climbing rope on a single 'biner), by some, with as little a load as 500lbs. If my math is right, at around 125lbs I only have to fall four feet to make those kinds of forces. >It's not so much that the clove hitch
>> is known to be unsafe, but with
>>soloing on the rise I don't want it to
>>become known for it.
But I thought you said it was known to kill people? In reality, the clove hitch through 2 biners is one of the best and most foolproof self belays going for aid climbing. Not to bust your balls or anything, but this knot has killed nobody that I have ever heard of, and unlike some of the "don't fall upside down" or "rap lever jammed open" devices, I would say they have in fact killed many more people than a clove hitch system ever will.
>>We know better knots that don't have the possibilities of failure as the clove hitch[<
Like? numerous figure 8's? Overhands? None of these offer the adjustability and more importantly the ability to let out slack as you go without ever unclipping and reclipping any knots.
]>Russ, do you have a drop tower? Maybe you could give us some real facts concerning this issue, it's blindingly apparent I have none! <<
No drop tower but I have tested the clove hitch in drop tests, and real world usage, in conjunction with John Dill of YOSAR and have deemed the clove hitch with 2 biners to absolutely safe to very high loads. I have towed cars with the clove hitch where the rope has broken and the hitch remains. If you have any actual data, please post it. But for now, I would suggest to the standard newbie to use a clove hitch while aid soling and would sleep well knowing that it is almost impossible for anyone to kill themselves using this system.. I would not offer this guarantee to any newbie using any device..... Silent Partner, Soloist, GriGri or whatever. Key is to not leave it too loose after adjusting, as this could cause rope burning in a fall, but never to the point of melting the rope through and sending you to the turf. Go try it yourselves..... jump out of tree or tie a rope to your car and punch it...... experiment in the real world.
adios,
Russ
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krustyklimber
Jun 23, 2002, 6:04 AM
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Once again I stand corrected (but with no more real evidence than I provided). My reputation will never hold up against the likes of Russ' and probably never should! This is why we are lucky to have guys like Mr.'s Walling, Gill, Mc Neely and Zabrok here to straighten us out!
My apologies to all!
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-06-25 00:39 ]
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russwalling
Jun 23, 2002, 4:57 PM
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Krusty writes:
>>Once again I stand corrected
>>(but with no more real evidence
>> than I provided)
Ummm... actually you had "heard" that bad things can happen to a clove hitch, where I had "tested" a clove hitch. A "drop tower" is a pretty specific thing, and I don't have one. But the tests we did were the same tests for failure that you would do out of a tower... ours were just done out of a tree.... minor difference. We (me, YOSAR, John Dill, Walt Shipley) also pull tested clove hitches and saw none of the 500lb slipping mentioned here, or any failure rate due to climbing forces. At the time Walt was looking for a knot or device or method for aid soloing..... so the testing was pretty specific to this topic.
Anyway... just trying to keep some facts in circulation. Of course if you happen upon any test results, I would really like to see them... after all, most of us just want to be safe.
I'll ask around myself and see if I can get any more data on this stuff and post it here.
adios,
Russ
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justsendingits
Jun 23, 2002, 6:05 PM
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Clove hitch is what I started out rope soloing on(free)I took some falls,that knot became mighty tight!!Now I use the S.P.way faster,feeds the rope better than a gri gri!! And I can rap on it after I fix.I am not sure,but I think that Dr Peed on,where is he anyway?Probably on ths shortest straw,cranking out those Angus Young riffs!!I think he does not use the clove because he climbs A4/A5,and does not want to load his pro,if he takes a fall,and uses those prusiks on long runners,when he has to take weight off the gri gri.Rebelay?Anyway I use the clove on bomber gear.Dr. P--I think I saw a picture of a clove hitch in Chongo's book,it had a biner inbetween the 2 loops,I think it was so that when you fall and the knot becomes very tight,it is easier to untie.Was I imagining this?(flashback?the 70s were hard on me)And what application(if any) was it in Chongo's book for?---Cheers---Richard----- Ps. The silent partner must be substituted with a gri gri,or clove hitch for a pendulum.
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-06-26 04:59 ]
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full-time-climb
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Jun 24, 2002, 3:49 AM
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I solo on the Grigri and back it up with a clove on a locker to my belay loop. Solid backup and takes the weight of the rope. Make sure you have enough slack to make your next clip. Work out your systems on the ground. Then go to easy grades to get your systems worked out. I also clove into the first couple of pieces. Watch your anchor. Be careful!!!Have fun.
L8r
John
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passthepitonspete
Jun 26, 2002, 3:11 AM
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Laydees, laydees...
There seems to be some confusion here!
There are two places you could use a clove hitch in a solo system.
The first is the way genlock meant, which is to use it as your primary solo belay device in place of the usual Grigri or what have you.
The second way is the way krusty seems to have mistakenly understood it to be, which is as a backup knot tied in the lead rope and rebelayed to pieces now and then.
In the first situation, as far as I am aware, and I will cite Advanced Rockcraft by Robbins, the clove hitch is the fundamental belay device. Its worthiness has never been questioned as far as I am aware. It's just a clove hitch, for cryin' out loud!
It works, but *I* would still tie a backup, because I always tie a backup.
In the second, I have spoken at length about using long prusik loops tied with a klemheist knot to rebelay the rope every so often. There are two reasons for this - to prevent the weight of the rope from causing the rope to slide through your Grigri and put unwanted slack between you and your lower belay station, and to rebelay the rope beneath rub points so you get zero rope abrasion [if you do it right.]
Here is a very cool idea for rigging a one-handed clove hitch solo belay system, as taught to me by Chongo in 1995.
This is not a system I would personally use because I already own and use and love a Grigri for this application, but those on more limited budgets might like it.
[Note: It would also be good to know were you ever stupid enough to drop your Grigri while soloing a big wall. Dr. Piton has been known to be stupid, but he has never been that stupid. Sheesh.]
Get yourself two locking carabiners, and put them in parallel on your harness as you would a single.
Next, put a shoulder length sling through one of the lockers, the one on the side you prefer. I'm left-handed, so in my case I'd put it on the left. Clip the other end of the sling into your harness.
Tie the clove hitch through the two lockers. One half of the clove hitch goes through both lockers, the other half of the clove hitch goes through only the locker with the sling. I don't have a couple lockers in front of me now, but there is a cool way to do this. Play around with it, and you'll get it.
The key here when you tie the clove hitch is to make sure that metal touches metal - in other words, when you cinch the clove tight, the two lockers touch.
You will see that when you stand up, by pulling on the shoulder length cord, you can advance the clove hitch one-handed as you move up.
When you let go of the sling at the right moment, your upward movement causes the two carabiners to cinch together and lock you off again.
Remember your backup not.
A homonym is better than a homo, and I'll take dykes on bikes over chicks with dicks any day.
This moving clove hitch idea is ever so clever.
Never tried it in the field.
Someone go try it for me, thus sparing me the effort.
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justsendingits
Jun 26, 2002, 7:40 AM
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PTPP---what about that clove I saw in Chongo's book?The one with the crab in between the loops? RICHARD
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samshafer
Jun 26, 2002, 8:22 AM
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Dr. Piton,
Sounds like an interesting system for emergency, but I'd prefer to have both hands free; as bad as I climb I need 'em. Will try to remember the system, though, should I ever drop my SP.
Sam
PS-Finally bought some cord for the prussiks as you suggested & feel much better about the system. Thanks again for that idea.
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genlock
Jun 26, 2002, 11:23 AM
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wow!!!
That`s a lot of info you guys gave me! I was out of town for the last few days.. and I didn`t tough that I would get so many replys..
I`ll read what you gave me and I`ll come back with more... hehehhehh
oh yeah.. I was reading about the "Continuous Loop Solo System" before I asked the question, but it wasn`t clear at all. (atleast for me.. ) I had found a "page" where it was explained.. but now, can`t find it anymore. I'll keep on looking..
As far as I can understand, you need to bring the same amout of rope as number of pitches??? can`t be right.. ( plus protection..)
I get the basic idea behing the Continuous loop, but the lead line is supposed to go through protection right? when you`ll start pulling on the rope to get it back, it will jam at the first nut or pro you placed.
Anyways.. I`ll go read now.. (again..)
thanks again!
-Eric
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punk
Jun 26, 2002, 11:50 AM
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Reading it here…I was wondering, is the clove hitch should use to rebelay or should I use a 5mm or 6mm Autoblock /Prussic loops?
The reason why I ask its b/c that I see this knots serving a double purpose as (A) a one directional valve (So, the rope won't slide down as you climb above it) (B) as a mini shock absorbent…(Incase of fall there is some slippage involve)
I could be wrong…if I am, can someone explain why??
PS
PTPP Is the modify clove will resembles modify Garda hitch?
[ This Message was edited by: punk on 2002-06-26 07:14 ]
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justsendingits
Jun 26, 2002, 12:53 PM
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Me no uderstand question you ask.Can please refrase question soi kin figre oout what u saying?????---Sorry,don't mean to be a smart ass. Just having a haha!!!Maybe I should go pack!!! RICH
[ This Message was edited by: justsendingits on 2002-06-26 05:58 ]
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