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maculated
Mar 28, 2005, 10:15 PM
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I think, fundamentally, that this is about as arguable as religion. Bumblie, I've not been following your religious bent, but since most religious right individuals support pro-life stances (and what's ironic is I'm "pro-life" and "pro-choice" at the same time . . . interesting how the line can muddy, yes?) a lot of this argument is based on faith.
And this faith says that human life, no matter the form, is more valuable than anything else on this planet. So, if you ascribe to that theory, then it makes sense to be anti-abortion.
In reply to: My point is most who support pro-choice sidestep the rights of the unborn. It's a non-issue, much like the rights of slaves 200 years ago. Nothing more than personal property. Too many people just want to ignore this aspect of the issue.
That's how you see it. But think about it this way: if I were the mother of a five year old daughter, she, too, is in effect my slave. She can't do anything unless I condone it, and she will do what I tell her or be punished. Should we emancipate all children from their guardians? That's what's going on here - is the guardian capable of fulfilling that role? The guardian makes a choice of "no."
Again, I am not going to make a value judgement of this guardian, but certainly you can see viable reasons for that "no" judgement that would not force a woman to carry a baby to term.
In reply to: Anyone actually seen pictures of 20 week old aborted fetuses? They have hands, feet, fingers, toes and facial features. And just prior to the "procedure" they had brain activity and a beating heart.
You know, back when I was a faithful Catholic, I wrote a 20 page paper for a junior high project that was anti-abortion. It is still circulated in the diocese today. It figured heavily on the images of these obviously well-formed babies. Again, I don't know why anyone would choose a late-term pregnancy, but even then, no one is mitigating the fetus its role as a human. It's not a question of it "not being human" anymore, though it was for a time. It's a question of appropriate guardianship.
In reply to: From what I've read (which is undoubtedly bias) Planned Parenthood does very little to explain the the downside of abortion. It's more of a "We advocate it, so if you want one, come on down and we'll take care of you right a way". It ain't nothin' but a thang.
I get Planned Parenthood mailings because I am on the dirty hippy mailing list apparently because I'm into liberal magazines (Harper's, New Yorker). I always look amusedly at these because there's no way I am supporting an abortion clinic, but . . . you have to see it their way: Planned Parenthood is not just an abortion clinic, it's a form of women's rights advocation. They seek to limit the pain involved in an abortion. Again, I'm not saying how I feel about this one way or another, but that's their take, and that's what feminist advocates who support PP think is best. For women.
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maculated
Mar 28, 2005, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: And the fetus is aborted long before 20 weeks. 6-8 weeks is the norm, so your scare tactics are unrealistic.
Skibby, you're doing the same thing Bumblie is doing - seeking worst-case scenarios to validate. He says "what about partial birth abortions and late term abotions?" You say "what about victims of rape or women unable to care for a child?"
The truth of the matter here is that both occur and are sanctioned today. If people on both sides of the debates could see this, we could work together to minimize the bad feelings on both ends by answering both concerns very, very easily. (Ban partial-birth and late-term abortions, sanction abortions for unfit mothers.)
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iltripp
Mar 28, 2005, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: To say "I'm opposed to something, but believe it's none of my business" is a nice rationalization. .
To marginalize something that people have clearly explained to you by making a sweeping generalization and labeling their explanation as a "nice rationalization" is, pure and simple, a poor and shallow debate tactic.
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8flood8
Mar 28, 2005, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: An unborn child has no rights that the person who's life force it is feeding off of doesn't give to it. A woman's body is the only thing besides her soul that she can truly posess. When do we get our souls?
The moment you get a breath of air. how about that.
Women's bodies change throughout the process of pregnancy. You are obviously out on a thin limb Bumblie, are you trolling?
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erisspirit
Mar 28, 2005, 10:28 PM
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I am currently Pro Life FOR MYSELF... but pro choice for EVERYONE ELSE. I do not think the government has any right to make laws regulating something like this. I think it is a very personal decision and each case is different. Now I may even turn to pro choice for myself but as I have never had to make such a decision I wouldn't know for sure.
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bumblie
Mar 28, 2005, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: An unborn child has no rights that the person who's life force it is feeding off of doesn't give to it. A woman's body is the only thing besides her soul that she can truly posess. When do we get our souls? The moment you get a breath of air. how about that.
Where'd you get that notion? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Time to go home. In parting I'd like to say I believe there are valid rationales for abortion, but the pro-abortion advocates (only a portion of the pro-choice group) want to minimize what is actually involved, physically and mentally, before and after. This won't hurt a bit. :wink:
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8flood8
Mar 28, 2005, 10:37 PM
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well apparantly breathing on your own doesn't matter enough to keep you alive in florida.
i've been avoiding the Schiavo poll, but i'm interested to see your views on it.
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maculated
Mar 28, 2005, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: Again, we get into the Government Invading Our Bellies Syndrome. Who determines what makes an unfit mother? I know I would have been which was why I made my choice. MY choice, not yours, not the government's, not another doctor's.
That's just the problem - how do you COMPROMISE? It all comes down to inarguable faith, so there has to be a happy medium. And that's where I agree with you - I don't want the government telling me my morals, but I also would like to assuage both sides.
Religiously "nosy" people aren't being nosy. They are looking out for your best interest in their mind. It's just a hard path to walk for both sides.
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happiegrrrl
Mar 28, 2005, 11:03 PM
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At this point in history, there is no way to know when the soul enters the body. It is all based on belief. Perhaps there will come a day when science will be able to measure such a thing, but for now, it isn't possible.
I am sure there are men of rc.com who would have said they were against abortion - before they had a girlfriend come to them with news of her pregnancy. I am sure it hurt some of these guys terribly to think about the various options, and come to the consludion that they were unwilling and or unable to take on the responsibility for fatherhood.
Most women, and many men, know at least one other who has gone through the process of deciding what to do when finding herself pregnant in circumstances where abortion would be a consideration.
Though some take the decision to abort very lightly, many do not.
Abortions have been around all through history, and are NOT a product of Roe vs. Wade. It wasn't that long ago that people had to go to doctors practicing without a license, and worse, for the procedure. The lack of abortions legality did not stop the need for abortions. I know a hell of a lot of women who've had abortions. Not a one of them became pregnant of immaculate conception.
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maculated
Mar 28, 2005, 11:07 PM
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Martha, you're failing to see the big picture about people who oppose your views. Maybe you do see it, but you're unwilling to accept it.
Ironically, I got into a little IM discussion with my mom last night about my not being Catholic anymore. I won't go into it, but basically I said that if she didn't have a fear of my soul being eternally damned (and she said she didn't) then she ought to stop pressing me to regain my faith. She had no answer for that.
Those who believe that all order, point to living, and point to being a good person resides with keeping the holy laws of their religions also hold the tenet that anyone that does not is probably going to be damned. My mom, though she won't admit it, thinks I am going to be damned, so she worries.
It's like seeing an alcoholic friend waste away - the religious you associate with have a choice of interceding, or letting your liver rot. It's a service in their eyes, and it must work on some level or they would have given it up a long time ago. I don't fault people for trying to save me, but I do fault them for not seeing my side as well.
Belief is belief is belief. Can't argue it. you have what you have and that's about all there is to it.
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8flood8
Mar 28, 2005, 11:08 PM
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blah i called troll a while back. Bumblie is just instigating :P
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justafurnaceman
Mar 28, 2005, 11:08 PM
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This pro-choice / pro-life arguement is the aged old question of "How much should the govn't be invovled when it comes to our lives and choices that we would like to make". This includes seatbelt laws (including buckling up children), carseat laws, helmet laws, making fast food restaraunts stop "supersizing" their food portions, smoking laws, gun control, gay marriages, casinos, .... the list keeps going on and on and on.
It all depends on how smart or stupid, moral or immoral you believe the average american is.
(reading about the people winning the Darwin awards don't help)
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justafurnaceman
Mar 29, 2005, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Martha, you're failing to see the big picture about people who oppose your views. Maybe you do see it, but you're unwilling to accept it. Ironically, I got into a little IM discussion with my mom last night about my not being Catholic anymore. I won't go into it, but basically I said that if she didn't have a fear of my soul being eternally damned (and she said she didn't) then she ought to stop pressing me to regain my faith. She had no answer for that. Those who believe that all order, point to living, and point to being a good person resides with keeping the holy laws of their religions also hold the tenet that anyone that does not is probably going to be damned. My mom, though she won't admit it, thinks I am going to be damned, so she worries. It's like seeing an alcoholic friend waste away - the religious you associate with have a choice of interceding, or letting your liver rot. It's a service in their eyes, and it must work on some level or they would have given it up a long time ago. I don't fault people for trying to save me, but I do fault them for not seeing my side as well. Belief is belief is belief. Can't argue it. you have what you have and that's about all there is to it. I do absolutely see your side, I just disagree with it. I don't have to accept it - that's my right as well as yours. And while I understand someone might want to "save me" from myself, I find that pretentious and meddling. I gave this more thought on the way home. Bumblie and I proferred what you termed the "extreme" versions of the issue. Let me offer the following: Woman gets pregnant because: her hormone level in her birth control pills is incorrect there's a pinhole she missed in her diaphragm the spermicide didn't thoroughly coat the ring of her diaphragm there's a pinhole in the condom her partner is wearing her partner's condom slips off her IUD doesn't fit properly her partner's vasectomy failed partners just put $150,000 on a mortgage and don't have health insurance to cover pregnancy and maternal leave 50 year old women thinks she's menopausal and oops! Do these more middle-of-the-road reasons for getting pregnant make accepting the choice of To Abort or Not To Abort any different? No. So there goes that theory that we took it to extremes. The problem as I see it is not one of pro-life v. pro-choice, it's one of public v. private. The ongoing American fascination of knowing what goes on in America's bedrooms doesn't apply here. This is an absolutely PRIVATE decision, whether it's to abort or not, and it's not the business of the government, religious organizations, or pro-lifers, but remains the business of the pregnant woman and ONLY so. Partners, pro-choicers, and Planned Parenthood even sit on the periphery. Sorry, Kristen, if you've never been pregnant you surely couldn't understand (which is why men's opinions on this subject don't count). I can guarantee that when you are and it's unexpected, you'll be faced with the same intense decision-making process most other women will face, and it won't be easy. Give pro-choicers that much at least.
The problem is that why don't people undestand that when you have sex that there is ALWAYS a risk of getting pregnant. If you don't want to get pregnant then you better make sure that it doesn't happen.
This isn't only a PRIVATE vs. PUBLIC issue, it's (for quite a few of us), a MORAL vs. IMMORAL issue. The human life is precious and issues that pertain to it should be dealt with the uttermost care.
There are enough people in this world who are seeking to raise children who can't who would love to take over the "burden" of child raising so that you don't have to.
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8flood8
Mar 29, 2005, 1:08 AM
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game set match
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erisspirit
Mar 29, 2005, 1:36 AM
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In reply to: The problem is that why don't people undestand that when you have sex that there is ALWAYS a risk of getting pregnant. If you don't want to get pregnant then you better make sure that it doesn't happen. This isn't only a PRIVATE vs. PUBLIC issue, it's (for quite a few of us), a MORAL vs. IMMORAL issue. The human life is precious and issues that pertain to it should be dealt with the uttermost care. There are enough people in this world who are seeking to raise children who can't who would love to take over the "burden" of child raising so that you don't have to.
See but this then opens up a can of worms. What if a 13 year old (old enought to have a period) is raped. Should law force that child to have a child?? or any rape vicitim for that matter they didn't get to have a choice and except the risk/ consequences of their actions. It wasn't their actions that got them pregnant.
With law you cant really then say ok everyone except rape victims its illegal. Then I can totally see young people coming in claiming to be raped just to try to fit into the loop hole
This argument will never have an end result, but happy debating
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theflyingsquirrel
Mar 29, 2005, 2:01 AM
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wow what a great example of a thread turned flame gone out of control hahahaha... heres something to think about... if your mother is pro-choice why are you still here? if shes not then if she was would you still be here? do monkeys like to play with poop? all good questions.
lets tinker with our thinker
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petsfed
Mar 29, 2005, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: To say "I'm opposed to something, but believe it's none of my business" is a nice rationalization. The slavery analogy is very appropriate. Back when slavery was commonly accepted, slaves had no rights in the matter. Their feelings on it was irrelevant. This is quite similar to the pro-choice sentiment on the rights of the child.
Its more along the lines of this: I support the right to choose religion. I don't support asshats putting words in my mouth for religious reasons. See?
I will say no more, because this is not a debate I want to be embroiled in, I have too much taste, too much restraint, and too much respect to do that. Don't tell me how I think, you're not me.
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bear829
Mar 29, 2005, 4:01 AM
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Everyone,
You can have your opinion, but you can't understand the choice of it. You have to be faced with the decision to even start to understand. Until then, I think you should just sit and think about what you would do if you were in the woman's shoes and what you would do if you had to make that choice. I can tell you that the choice is the hardest thing that one has to make. And I can tell you that from experience. You think about it now, and you are old enough to make an educated choice, I was 14/15. I wish now that I hadn't. I would be able to have kids now. They were so traumatic, that i am now 97% sterile. It sucks. I am praying for a miracle. So, here's my recommendation...sit and think what you would do in that situation, then you can decide. Until then, don't.
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taualum23
Mar 29, 2005, 1:54 PM
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Glad I haven't put you back on the killfile list yet, traddie. Did you read the rest of that post, or just pick the part that you liked. You putting th word "intelligent" in quotes doesn't really do it for me anymore. I think we should just be friends.
"How could I possibly dictate rules to anyone in that position without any understanding of it? Wouldn't that be barbaric? " Yes, indeed it would, please review the last 3000 posts you have made.
I'm glad my miscarriage comment (I can only tell you it wasn't a joke so many times....but again, you'll never understand) got under your skin. Maybe next you will think about the THOUGHT process behind it. I know, actual independent thought is objectionable to you. Try it, though. You might like it. Be careful though, after you try it, you might find it more difficult to know all the answers at all times.
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taualum23
Mar 29, 2005, 2:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: IMO Pro-choice means you're okay with women having abortions. Your opinion is wrong. Obviously, one ought not say one's opinion is wrong, but in your quote, specifically, you said what you think being pro-choice means. Being pro-choice and not fitting into the conclusion, I feel OK with saying this. I'm not OK with women having abortions. I am less OK with the government TELLING them they may not. In a perfect world, there would be no abortions. Every person would conceive only when they wanted too, and every potential child would be welcomed into this world with joy and love. There would be no reason for the CHOICE to have an abortion. We do not live in a perfect world. If given the choice in our society of the two imperfections, I will take the imperfection that is choice, over the imperfection that is the government taking that choice.
Just figured if you're going to quote me, you have the chance to read the whole post. I have driven a friend to get an abortion. I have held her hands while she cried, agonizing over the decision. When they didn;'t know what to do, and asked for my opinion, I told them how I felt, and helped them come to their CHOICE.
I have watched a young a woman's face as they found out they were pregnant after being raped while unconcious from drugs being slipped in her dink. I talked with her after the abortion, and how and why she felt it was her right to choose, and how I agree with that, even though I am anti-abortion.
My mother is pro-choice, and yet, here I am.
Some of us do have some experience in this area. SOme of us CAN tell someone when the conclusion they have come to about a group we belong to is WRONG.
So take your half-witted intolerant troglodyte of a self back to whatever rock you crawled out of and ask someone if it's OK to start thinking.
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bumblie
Mar 29, 2005, 2:10 PM
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Taualum23,
That may be the most condescending, smug, elitist post you've ever made on this site. :roll:
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taualum23
Mar 29, 2005, 2:12 PM
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In reply to: Taualum23, That may be the most condescending, smug, elitist post you've ever made on this site. :roll:
Which one? They were both quite concescending and elitist. OK, and a little bit smug, too.
I have found fighting fire with white gas to be a great deal of fun, if not terribly effective. :roll:
Edit: Or did you mean my response to you from ealier in the thread? But that one doesn't really get the "ever" title I don't think.
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dookie
Mar 29, 2005, 2:19 PM
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skibibs, my hat is off to you for taking on this argument, God knows I've done it before and it's a tough one to get into. Bear, you said it best, until you've been put in that situation, you don't know nor can you ever know what goes through the woman's mind. And no one but that woman in her particular situation will ever know the reasons and thought that go into that choice. But that's the point, that it is still her choice.
There is one thing I want to address here, though, and that was bumblies comment about planned parenthood making it out to be a chop shop with no cares in the world for the choice the woman is making (keep in mind that only a few of the pp centers actually perform abortions, and it is not nearly at the heart of the purpose of that organization - they are a reproductive health center for woman). Having used many of pp's services and volunteered at a center, I can tell you this - they do not take the choice a woman makes lightly, especially if it is to terminate a pregnancy. They counsel the woman on her options (having the baby, adoption, abortion procedures) and leave the choice up to the woman. What they do NOT do is judge a woman for the decision she makes, which it seems you'd like them to. One of their main creedos is to respect the reproductive rights of a woman without passing judgement on her. What pp will do is allow the woman to make her choice, and then explain in full detail what this choice means and what she will experience. They also discuss with her how she got pregnant, and they counsel on birth control options for the future, so that a future unwanted pregnancy can be avoided.
I just wanted to comment on that, because in my eyes they are a very worthy organization when it comes to women's health, women's sexual education, and women's reproductive rights.
And for those that balk about adoption, it is indeed a worthy option that many do choose instead of abortion if they are faced with an unwanted pregnancy. But it is not always the right choice for everyone. There are plenty of great children in foster homes and temporary care as it is these days, becuase no adoptive parents have been found for them. There are great expenses that come along with those nine months of bearing a child, not always can or will they be covered for depending on the circumstances. To say that having the baby is the ONLY option that a woman has is a moot argument. Go ahead and make it against the law. They'll still happen. They've been happening since women started getting pregnant. That's a long time ;) Does it make it 'right' in your eyes? Surely not. However, rest assured that NO MATTER how you feel about it being right or wrong, it won't matter if it's illegal or not, the choice will still be with the woman. Abortions will happen regardless of the legality of the issue whether you like it or not.
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taualum23
Mar 29, 2005, 2:25 PM
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Well said, Dookie.
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