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hosebeats
Apr 11, 2005, 11:08 PM
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As a quick preface to my actual question it might help to know where I'm coming from here. I started climbing in the Pit of Hell known as Virginia Beach at the local rock gym. Nice people but not necessarily the environment that fosters knowledge about safety and the long multipitch climbing I desire.
Moving to San Diego I learned of El Cajon Mtn. An awesome crag hidden from tourists and the lazy climber that had bolted multipitch awesomeness. Thinking I had found my Mecca of SoCal I started to devour everything I could on building anchors, self rescue, safe rappelling, and anything I could reference to saving my ass if I got into some nastiness.
After a few easy routes and more research into anchors I found that just about everyone has a different opinion on a bomber anchor. Reading John Longs "More Climbing Anchors" kind of confused me. It seems that no anchor is truly satisfactory, or if its is really bomber it takes too long and too much gear to set up.
Granted, the anchors are all bolted with seemingly solid stainless bolts into solid granite but I still have a few questions as to what is acceptable and what isn't.
--What I have been doing- Using a 4ft. Spectra sling clipped to 2 locking 'biners (which are attached to the 2 bolts of the anchor/belay station) then brought to the direction of the force generated due to a fall, and making an overhand knot creating my powerpoint. I belay off of the powerpoint (if I'm belaying up a second, off my waist if I'm belaying a leader) using a locking 'biner and a munter hitch or a gri gri . I also tie into the powerpoint using a second locking 'biner and a clove hitch. This has been my standard so far and works well.
--What I have seen- Basically the same thing with the exception of using the Magic X/sliding knot method. Also backing up the clove hitch by tying a Fig8 on a bight and clipping it into one of your anchor points (which I intend to start doing). Now, I understand that the magic x violates SRENE due to the No Extension rule. However it seems to be used very commonly in the area due to the newness and seemingly bomber nature of the stainless bolts and the rock.
Of the two systems, which are very much alike, the latter is easier on the belayer because he can shift his weight back and forth while the anchor autoequilizes. Is this too big of a sacrifice in the terms of safety? Or is it an acceptable violation? If you were to use the second system is safer to belay off of a directional attached to one of the anchor points? Questions beget questions it seems.
I feel that I've been extremely conscience of safety so far in my multipitch routes. What I've learned has come from knowledgeable sources that at the moment I can't get to. (The AMGA guide friend who I learned from is pretty far removed from here.) Books only take you so far before real application brings up some different question not covered in between the covers.
I know I put a lot down here, any response is welcomed.
--I know my writing skills have a lot to be desired. Go easy on my grammar please.
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vegastradguy
Apr 11, 2005, 11:19 PM
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what you've been doing is fine- the other way is not so good for the reasons Long states.
the other thing that i usually do at a bolted stance (or even a trad stance) is clip a second sling into a single bolt and hang off that, then back up to the power point for belaying- this generally keeps the powerpoint oriented correctly and also keeps me out of the way when the second comes up.
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capn_morgan
Apr 11, 2005, 11:37 PM
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A nifty little trick I learned a while back for bolted anchors is to take a sling and make a knot in the middle, then clip the ends to the bolts and your PP locker through both loops of the sling. Unless the bolts are far apart a shoulder length sling should suffice, but use your judgement. This is a quick and simple way of rigging off of a two bolt anchor. If the dirrection of pull is not directly below the anchor you can move the knot.
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philbox
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Apr 12, 2005, 12:20 AM
Post #4 of 13
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=36422
What`s wrong with using the rope.
Tie a double headed figure of eight or bunny ears as it is colloquially known around here. Clip the ears into a screw gate on each ring and your golden, call safe and then tie a figure of eight on the bite to place your GriGri or Reverso in with another screw gate and then the second is good to climb. Since you are already tied into the rope you are safe as soon as you clip the screwgates into the anchors. No need to bring extra slings along for the anchor and the rope being way more bomber than slings means you have a greater chance of getting as close to a bombproof anchor as you can.
Since you are tied in seperately you can easily escape the anchor and the Gri Gri means self rescue or assisting your partner becomes a reasonably trivial exercise. Works for me all round. Similar thing applies for two ropes except I would use a Reverso.
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vegastradguy
Apr 12, 2005, 2:20 AM
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well, nothings wrong with using the rope per say (unless the pitches are rope stretchers), and its always a good trick to have, but what he's doing is completely fine and bombproof.
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hosebeats
Apr 12, 2005, 3:50 AM
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I have practiced using the rope as an anchor. The pitches have been really long though. I'm not sure if I'd have enough rope to do it. It's still a trick I have just in case something randomly wierd happens during a climb. I'd rather feel retarded asking basic questions and over prepare than get cockey and find myself 300ft up scared and in trouble.
Thanks for the knowlage guys.
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samuel
Apr 12, 2005, 7:51 AM
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In reply to: --What I have been doing- Using a 4ft. Spectra sling clipped to 2 locking 'biners (which are attached to the 2 bolts of the anchor/belay station) then brought to the direction of the force generated due to a fall, and making an overhand knot creating my powerpoint. I belay off of the powerpoint (if I'm belaying up a second, off my waist if I'm belaying a leader) using a locking 'biner and a munter hitch or a gri gri . I also tie into the powerpoint using a second locking 'biner and a clove hitch. This has been my standard so far and works well. --What I have seen- Basically the same thing with the exception of using the Magic X/sliding knot method. Also backing up the clove hitch by tying a Fig8 on a bight and clipping it into one of your anchor points (which I intend to start doing). Now, I understand that the magic x violates SRENE due to the No Extension rule. However it seems to be used very commonly in the area due to the newness and seemingly bomber nature of the stainless bolts and the rock.
I mostly use the rope and a bowline on a bight with a directional figure eight (atomic clip from More climbing anchors) if I'm switching leads and know the length of the pitches or a cordelette if I'm bringing up newbies or leading all pitches.
(If the cordelette is too long you can just double it)
Using the sliding x would only be reasonable if the load will come from different directions during the climb, like with a toprope scenario and a route that wanders.
While bringing up a second, it will come from the direction of the last bolt. When leading it will either be from a factor 2 fall ("straight" down) or in the direction of the next bolt.
So if you take the time to think about it, you should know in what direction the load will come, and decide on the method.
As far as I can recall, Long also says something about generally not using the sliding x as the primary component of an anchor, although it sometimes can be useful as a component in a "bigger" anchor.
If the bolts are so bomber, why worry about perfect equalisation?
And if they are not, the risk of extension is too big.
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reno
Apr 12, 2005, 8:40 AM
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I don't ever use the sliding X anymore. Old age has made me more cautious, I guess.
While I will use a cordlette from time to time, using the rope is my personal favorite, but I do something a bit different than Philbox's suggestion:
From harness, tie 8 on a bight, clip to first bolt. A bit of slack, then clove hitch the second bolt. Back to harness, secured with locker. On that stretch of slack between the bolts, I tie an 8 on a bight PP, and belay directly off that, using a B-52.
So... Harness to bolt (with an 8 on a regular biner), create a PP (with an 8,) to second bolt (clove with regular biner,) then back to harness (with an 8 to a locker.)
Needs: 2 regular biners, 2 lockers, and about 20 feet of rope, depending on the exact layout of the belay ledge. Also gives a nice place to stack the rope as you bring up the second (the stretch from your harness to the first rope.)
Input from the assembled gurus is welcome.
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srwings
Apr 12, 2005, 10:06 AM
Post #9 of 13
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Registered: Jun 27, 2004
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The sliding X may be coming back in style as the preferred way of doing business. I took some pro placing instruction at Seneca Rocks, WV last year and that's what the guides were emphasizing over the static direction version. I was told that if there was any doubt as to where the direction of fall would take place that I should use the sliding X.
My guide referenced a fatality last year at Tahquitz. He said their research indicated that one of the climbers fell in a direction not anticipated and popped the anchor one piece at a time.
If you are concerned about extension on the sliding X you can always put a knot in it on your longest webbing to minimize extension.
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tradklime
Apr 12, 2005, 5:34 PM
Post #10 of 13
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In reply to: The sliding X may be coming back in style as the preferred way of doing business.
In reply to: If you are concerned about extension on the sliding X you can always put a knot in it on your longest webbing to minimize extension.
You can put knots on both sides of the clip-in point and significantly limit extension in either direction. I generally tie knots with just enough room to allow the minimum amount of shift that the anchor will experience (still enough shift to adversely affect a static power point).
That said, I usually make my anchors out of the rope.
philbox's method allows for self adjusting equalization.
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solomonr605
Apr 12, 2005, 5:51 PM
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Registered: Feb 12, 2004
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If there are only two bolts, I'll usually use an atomic clip. But if there are three or more, I'll use a cordelette. To all the rope anchor experts: How do you set up a rope anchor on more than two pieces?
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tradklime
Apr 12, 2005, 6:00 PM
Post #12 of 13
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In reply to: How do you set up a rope anchor on more than two pieces? |
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philbox
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Apr 12, 2005, 9:09 PM
Post #13 of 13
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In reply to: In reply to: How do you set up a rope anchor on more than two pieces? The rope goes from your harness to the first piece, from the first piece to the second, from the second back to your harness, from your harness to the third, from the third to the fourth, from the fourth to your harness, from your harness to the fifth...
That is called a rope-a-lette, use that word if you wish to search for more info.
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