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ajkclay
Apr 12, 2005, 2:36 AM
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Okay, so I am interested in your personal experiences and/or things you have witnessed. Have you ever found that your skill level has been reduced due to an increase in perceived risk, real or imagined? Examples would be climbing with someone who you think may not be a safe belayer, using gear you think is suspect, changing to lead climbing from top roping (sport to trad, trad to aid/solo etc), climbing on choss, that sort of thing, and finding that you are suddenly unable to climb as hard (grade wise) as you were in "safer" situations. Adam
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comet
Apr 12, 2005, 2:46 AM
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well, now, that's just good common sense, isn't it? the smart--and obvious--thing to do when climbing in an inherently unsafe situation (runout, bad gear, soloing, etc) is to climb within one's level; if you're on TR or good gear, you can push yourself out of your comfort zone. it's not about giving in to fear; it's about knowing your limits. yes, go ahead, tell me i have no balls. i can already hear it coming.
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vegastradguy
Apr 12, 2005, 2:46 AM
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A couple months back we headed out to the Yin and Yang crag here in RR and experienced some fear induced leading snafus... On Yin and Yang, I ended up french freeing the crux because I did not want to fall at it due to the short pendulum that would have happened. In reality, I wouldnt have fallen far- the gear was only a foot or two to my left, but it looked much further away...i still need to go back and bag that one. That same day, my friend, who had TR'd Atman several times attempted a lead of the route and found himself faltering just off the deck- while not especially difficult, its committing for a few feet with a risk of groundfall if you blow the gear placement...he ended up getting it after a couple attempts. I think this one was more due to lack of leading recently than lack of ability- he just hadnt been leading much at the time. oddly enough, though, it seems to be traversing more than anything that bothers me on climbs. i can run it out if necessary at my limit, climb on bad rock near my limit, climb above bad pro, etc, etc...(not that i enjoy these things, but my insane partner and i often find ourselves in places we probably shouldnt be...) no clue why that is, though.
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glyrocks
Apr 12, 2005, 2:47 AM
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Fear of falling used to get my weak ass up some sport climbs when I was first learning to climb. Then I learned to downclimb and hang. A questionable belayer bothers the hell out of me. I pretend I'm soloing when I look down and realize too late my belayer is a moron. On the other hand, a steady hand on belay has saved my ass more than once. So a good belayer definitely lets me feel better about working my limit. Stone Mountain, NC routes scare the crap out of me, leading or following. Has something to do with the enormous runout. I can lead 5.11 sport, but at Stone (which has like 10 bolts divided among 20 climbs) I can't lead 5.9. So, yea, definite loss of performance due to a healthy fear of losing all my skin on a runout slab.
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ajkclay
Apr 12, 2005, 3:03 AM
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In reply to: well, now, that's just good common sense, isn't it? the smart--and obvious--thing to do when climbing in an inherently unsafe situation (runout, bad gear, soloing, etc) is to climb within one's level; if you're on TR or good gear, you can push yourself out of your comfort zone. it's not about giving in to fear; it's about knowing your limits. yes, go ahead, tell me i have no balls. i can already hear it coming. No, I wouldn't say anything of the sort, we're talking about fear, so it's a very personal thing. I'm not sure that it is knowing your limits, because wouldn't that mean if you could onsight a grade confidently top roping, then you theoretically could lead it? I am really interested in how the grade at which someone is able to climb reduces drastically when they climb in what they perceive to be a riskier mode even though they can onsight confidently at higher grades.
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hosebeats
Apr 12, 2005, 3:41 AM
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I agree with Vegastradguy, traverses are scary. This last weekend I did a 3 pitch sport route with the last pitch a 5.9 traverse up a bleak looking ramp. Just looking down and seeing all of the junk I'd slide into and against scared the crap out of me. I got a bit gripped and was very gratefull to reach the anchors. Fear slows me down and makes me over grip sometimes. I just try to climb in the moment and focus on move after move. Sounds cheesy but it seems to work. A friend of mine who is a weeny when it comes to roped climbing tries to break up the climb bolt to bolt like a boulder problem. It helps him manage the exposure somewhat. Fear is one of the reasons I climb. Kind of testing my limits and seeing what I can and can't do.
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nedsurf
Apr 12, 2005, 4:04 AM
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Yeah it affects me. On lead, it makes me back off of things that are at my limit, but it also makes me not make mistakes on the climbs at my lead level. It is a blessing and a curse. That is why I usually breakm up a weekend of trad/sport climbing with some good ol' fashioned top rope to get those climbs at my limit.
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din
Apr 12, 2005, 5:01 AM
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I don't know if I've ever really felt fear beforehand. generally there is some anxiety, but it's nothing a little cialis won't take care of.
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jt512
Apr 12, 2005, 5:13 AM
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In reply to: I am really interested in how the grade at which someone is able to climb reduces drastically when they climb in what they perceive to be a riskier mode even though they can onsight confidently at higher grades. I'm curious as to what is motivating your question. -Jay
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chris97is
Apr 12, 2005, 5:29 AM
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Even in gym climbing, after a year of having tried to get good at leading, I can TR a full grade, sometimes 2, harder than I can lead. Right before I tried leading for the first time I listened to a story about a guy falling on lead and breaking both legs. Needless to say, I was terrified, and although I gave the route my best effort, I didn't get past the third bolt. This was a 5.8 and I'd just top roped an 11, so it wasn't about difficulty. Every time I got to a move I wasn't completely sure that I could do, I'd think of the guy with his broken legs, and just hang there on the huge jugs I had and over-grip until I got so pumped out that I couldn't do the move anyways. Now, its a full year later, and I'm still scared. I've climbed a fair amount on lead, but I'm definitely not comfortable climbing anything hard, because I can feel how fear affects my climbing. I'll get to a committing move, think of the broken legs, know that there is no possibility of getting hurt from a fall, not want to do the move, try it anyways, and fall because I hesitated, or didn't really commit to it. This has the ironic effect of creating a situation in which the more scared I am about falling, the more likely I am to do so. so, yes, fear affects my climbing in a manner far greater than the required amount to instill life-preserving caution in players of a dangerous game. and I hate it.
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veritasmmv
Apr 12, 2005, 5:36 AM
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my theory on fear is this... doing what we do, the day you're not afraid to push the limits, is the day you should stay home.
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becalm
Apr 12, 2005, 5:55 AM
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yes. 5.11a 30 feet from a bolt? don't climb so good. 5.11a with a bolt at my waist? i'm a goddess.
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ajkclay
Apr 12, 2005, 6:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am really interested in how the grade at which someone is able to climb reduces drastically when they climb in what they perceive to be a riskier mode even though they can onsight confidently at higher grades. I'm curious as to what is motivating your question. -Jay I am considering a study on the subject and would like to hear anecdotally from other climbers about their thoughts and experiences. Think of it as testing the waters. :) Also, I am coming up very short on this subject in most journals I have searched through and am wondering if I am limiting my success by eing too close to the question. You know, sometimes you get one track stuck in your head and then it's hard to change gears, but then someone says something and *ping* on goes the lightbulb. Any suggestions?
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akclimber
Apr 12, 2005, 6:30 AM
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Good thread... Here is my experiences. In every climb, in my mind I know there is a reserve. Perhaps it is more psychological than anything else. I was on this sport climb a few days ago. (Unknown grade maybe 5.9?) A friend did it, and said it was worth doing. Anyways, so I go about halfway up, and it is the crux. Both feet are now smeared on small obstructions, the left on a sloper, and the right on a mini-jug, starting to get tired. Instantaneosly feet and left hand come off. But that right hand stayed, only because I was confident it would. When there is no doubt, then there is no fear. When the reserve was called upon, it will not fail. However I will admit that I got to the next bolt, and was too pumped, and had to be lowered off. When I went up the second time and got to the bolt it was a cakewalk, because of the confidence, and finished the route. Confidence is key.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 12, 2005, 6:35 AM
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As A climber of 22 years, a performing musician and a former martial arts instructor (4th dan) i can tell you with absolute certainty that FEAR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND :shock: A certian ammout of fear can keep you alive in the form of respect. You respect your oponent or you respect the climb or mountain etc. If you fear your oponent then they will eat you for breakfest :twisted: You won't even make it to lunch. When playing music in front of an audience, fear makes your fingers turn to jellow and your voice waver. When lead climbing, fear robs you of strength, makes you shake like a dog $hitting razor blades and will make you come off and DIE :? people commonly confuse adrenalin and fear. they are entirely seperate animals. When the mother lifts the burning car off of her trapped child in a superhuman adrenalin feat she is too busy saveing her child to be afraid. The same mother in the same situation who becomes afraid is robbed of strength and perrishes with her child.
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ajkclay
Apr 12, 2005, 2:02 PM
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In reply to: In every climb, in my mind I know there is a reserve. Interesting concept, does it mean that there is a point to which you know you can confidently perform at depending on the style of climbing?
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tech_dog
Apr 13, 2005, 3:23 AM
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Fear means different things to different people. When I read this, my first response is that it's fear that keeps you alive. Fear is why I use a rope. Fear is is why I use redundant pro. My initial perspective is that fear is the logical response to a calculated risk. Some of the other post are a good reminder that there's a healthy, calculated fear, and there's a destructive panic type of fear. One keeps you from decking. The other just locks you up.
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ajkclay
Apr 13, 2005, 5:00 AM
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In reply to: there's a healthy, calculated fear, and there's a destructive panic type of fear. One keeps you from decking. The other just locks you up. Yep, and I think there is something in between too, it doesn't lock you up, but it affects the level of skills you have at your disposal. The interesting thing is that when you trad lead something, if you perceive the risk to be higher, you then attempt problems that are not as hard, but will often perceive them to be as hard or even harder. So in practice, you look in a guidebook, pick a route that is significantly easier than you can top rope, and then part way through your lead ascent you begin to think you have been sand-bagged. This is what I am interested in, how many have noticed this phenomenon?
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