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lazyjammin
Apr 13, 2005, 2:28 AM
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Thanks everyone for posting. Yes I agree, this is not the methodology I will be using to prove any point, I was only looking for the information in order to decide what exactly I want to cover in the paper, what points I wish to go over and get other peoples opinions. Essentially the paper will be about how race does not matter in the small subcultures of sports, how there is very little racism among climbers. Also I wished to cover gender biases in the sports, as well as contrast sports such as climbing, mtn biking, kayaking and skiing to footbal basketball, baseball etc.. Yes, most of the reasons are probably economic as to why there are not more African American climbers, however the goal of the paper is not so much to look at the reasons but at the underlying social structures in the various sport subcultures. Anyways, thanks for your input.
JP
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clee03m
Apr 14, 2005, 4:03 AM
Post #27 of 40
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Few anecdotes:
I think that there is definitely a bias toward women. For example, I was at the gym. I'm into climbing more than my husband and drag him to the gym at times. The attendant at the gym walked up to us and asked if I was a member because he assumed my husband was a member.
And the race thing? We'll once I was climbing at Taquitz and some white chick assumed that my partner (Korean guy with limited English) must suck and told him to start on an easier route despite that he used to compete internationally.
What is your race and gender? Asian Female
What is your current income? low but still not done with training
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? I haven't really felt that discrimination plays a role for my personal climbing. It's not like people have the power to stop me from climbing.
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? See above
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? Yeah, it's strange how African Americans are hard to come by. I see a lot of Asians, though.
One the things I liked about climbing/mountaineering is that it really seems to surpass class issues. For example, the group I used to climb had educational levels ranging from high school to doctorate, and economic levels from barely getting by to obviously comfortable, but when we came together, we were passed that. It seemed that their abilities and experiences were what counted. One of the reasons I initially fell in love with climbing.
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ricepowr
Apr 14, 2005, 9:32 AM
Post #28 of 40
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When you think of a sport and its diversities, you have to sometimes think outside the box and dig a little deeper into the human spirit. To me, E-treme sports is a persons ( of all genders and races ) way of expressing their own styles, forms, and way of life, rich or poor and everything in between. And of course, challenging the " what if's" within themselves.
I've read through the forum on your subject and I noticed a few members kind of take offense to your subject, especially when dealing with diversity. Not to single out a member and I respect his opinions, but what he said just really intrigued me. A quote from ch*****ee in the forum:
"Firstly the girlfriend tells me that a dispropotionate amount of african americans lack the ability to swim. Also I have observed that in general african americans have more of an aversion to being cold than anglos. Lastly I have observed that african americans are somewhat less likely to be outdoorsy in general. "
Besides the swimming part, I can tell you one thing, being a runner myself, one of the most amazing sports that contradicts this statement is the New York Marathon. Take a minute and think about it. Is race and income a contributing factor? Most of the top finishers are from Africa.....
Unlike your traditional sports such as golf and tennis, climbing is a sport that is more of a human social activity that is pure, you vs. you - No distractions and no outrageous membership dues. For example, does, "Lets go climbing with our clients tomorrow and discuss the proposals and numbers they have to offer us ! " sound right to you? Basically, you don't have to be rich to enjoy climbing and the business you conduct is motivating your climbing partners and sharing their achievements.
I hope this helps as an insight for your paper. With that said I will now answer your survey.
What is your race and gender? Asian / Male
What is your current income? Between $0.00 and & $120,000.00
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time? Broke - Middle Class - Upper Class - Broke - Middle Class - Happy
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? Is a Frog's as* watertight?............................. ( Yes )
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? Never - Especially in team sports where you work together to achieve one goal..........WIN !!!!
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? I feel there is plenty of diversity in the climbing world. People just tend to categorize and segregate too often. You see, humans are going to do what makes them happy and choose their own preference on, in this case, extreme sport to achieve their inner goals.
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bad_lil_kitty
Apr 15, 2005, 3:35 AM
Post #29 of 40
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In reply to: :arrow: What is your race and gender? asian, female :arrow: What is your current income? Hhahhahaa --- enough :arrow: What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time? re: income, got a 5% raise, so 5% more from when I started; what class? wtf? I graduated undergrad 8 yrs ago; not sure what you mean re: class and parents--- they are 64 and 65... The are upper middle-class and always have been since I've been around. :arrow: Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? Sure - I don't want some asshole of ANY race or ANY class and/or gender climbing w/ me. :arrow: Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? nope :arrow: Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? yes, much diversity... Uh cause as primates (if you ascribe to evolution) we were meant to climb. .
I am going to be a shit because my background entails me to do such. I have prepared many questionares --- too many open-ended and leading questions in this one... If you can answer any of your questions w/ a simple yes or no, then you aren't going to get what you want per se.
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mountain1maniac
Apr 15, 2005, 4:51 AM
Post #30 of 40
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Maslow, A. 1943. A theory of human motivation. Psychological Review, 50:370-396.
Think about it.
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yetanotherdave
Apr 15, 2005, 5:18 AM
Post #31 of 40
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What is your race and gender?
Another white male
What is your current income?
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time?
I pay more in taxes now than I earned when I climbed full-time. This makes it easier to buy shiny toys, but doesn't change my ability to go climbing. I didn't have to pay a mortgage while on road-trips back then...
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant?
I feel that race/gender are unimportant to almost any passtime, and most jobs. I have been told that all-female submarine crews tend to perform better, but that's drifting way off on a tangent :)
Class is a funny one - the only place I see it really playing a role is the lucky few full-time climbers living on trust funds. I climbed with a few 'trustafarians' back when I was a full-time climber, and I have to say that they definitely had class-based advantages in their climbing... I've also climbed with people who supported themselves climbing full-time by dumpster-diving for recyclables. Personally, I'd prefer the trust fund :)
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mtnfreak
Apr 15, 2005, 5:29 AM
Post #32 of 40
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I'm white, live entirely off of student loans, I'm a dental student, from a upper-middle class income familiy and started climbing during my first year in a private $20K a year college. I do think these factors are somewhat important, all of my climbing friends are like me, white, students, because I'm in professional schoool. However, most of the people I meet and climb with at J-Tree/Yosemite/Smith Rocks are working couples and the ones I meet in places like Potrero Chico are people who work some, then take months off to climb. Still white. None of the asians I know in professional school (about 1/3 of the population) climb, paraglide, mountain climb or bike.
As for using such a selective venue such as this forum for doing scholastic research... I hope you realize that it isn't a great idea. When you really gather your data, it should be from a random climbing population, not just us climbers who spend too much time at their computers!
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bad_lil_kitty
Apr 15, 2005, 5:54 AM
Post #33 of 40
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Interesting - I went to a state university for 20k a year - hm.
Ah Yes. Mr.Maslow - akin to my studies in school.
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viciado
Apr 15, 2005, 10:50 AM
Post #34 of 40
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Racism in Portugal, particularly black/white, is a serious and observable issue. The particular problems in Portugal stem from the former colonial relationship with Guine Bissau, Moçambique, Angola, São Tomé e Príncipe, and Cabo Verde. Immigrants from these countries tend to occupy a lower economic stratus and work primarily in blue collar settings (sanitation, maintenance and construction.) Added to this pressure is the increasing number of Eastern European immigrants that live in similar circumstances and thus compete for the same jobs and housing. Most Portuguese refuse (maybe too strong of a word) to take similar jobs or live in the same communties as the immigrant populations.
In a general cross-section of the climbing community at the gym and at the crag, I climb or have climbed with:
1 African immigrant (second generation), male, middle class income
4 Eastern europe immigrants (first generation), male, lower income
2 American (University exchange students), income?
2 Asian (second generation immigrants) both female, lower income
5 Brazilian immigrants, lower income, males
50 + Portuguese (white, middle to upper class) ~10 are female. Middle income to lower middle income.
These numbers are based on two and a half years of climbing in Portugal. I am not sure how these numbers represent the general population, but I can indicate that about a third (?) of my friends (climbing and non-climbing) are originally from one of the former colonies. I tend to climb with whoever is there (gym or crag) at the time, however my 5 or 6 regular partners are all white middle class Portuguese.
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jkarns
Apr 15, 2005, 2:10 PM
Post #35 of 40
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For several years my primary climbing partner was a guy whose mother was black (from haiti) and father was german. Although his skin was darker color, her seemed to identify more with "white" culture. He was also one of the most talented athletes I have ever interacted with, but he could not play "ball sports" to save his life. He made up for this, however, in mountain biking, rock climbing, kayaking, snowboarding, mountaineering, and backpacking. He participates in sooo many different activities at an above average level -- very impressive. I can outclimb him, but he'll kick my ass at all the other activities listed.
Let's get something else straight. Climbing is NOT expensive. Sure to get rigged to climb a big wall will cost you an arm and a leg, but most climbers are boulderers. A bouldering setup with budget shoes and pad will got for $200. Wanna go sport climbing? Add another $300 on top of that. $500 will not get you into decent skis, boots, and bindings (not to mention lift tickets!!) It will not get you into a good boat, nor will it get you onto a nice bike.
Again the only reason that other sports (all those ball sports) are more common among lower income athletes is because the costs are being subsidized. Football is hella expensive!!! All those pads and equipment easily cost more than a climbing setup; its just that someone else is paying for it. Plus the cost of courts and fields is huge!! Baseball: mitt + bat + cletes is over $200!!
In closing, There are very few sports that are cheaper than bouldering or even sport climbing.
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areuinclimber
Apr 15, 2005, 3:17 PM
Post #36 of 40
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What is your race and gender? white boy
What is your current income? hmmmm. probably around 10k a year or so. also why do so many people "not wanna say over the net" give me a break :roll:
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time? same. around 10k
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? pretty unimportant.
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? ummm no except for the classic biners jokes
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? uhhhhh. not much but i dont think it has to do with money. more the life and teaching in which the blacks that i have witnessed are brought up in. they are usually more focused on making a living and leading the average life. also alot of my black friends that i talk to say "ya'll white people is crazy, you never see a black man doin that" dont really know why that is but o well. i used to live in dc area so i had alot of black friends.
> i am assuming you are focusing more on the african american culture because i would have to say that in other countries there is a greater presence of that population of climber than white climbers. (pakistani climbers in pakistan, afghani climbers in afghanistan, japanese climbers in japan ....etc.)
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gogo
Apr 15, 2005, 4:11 PM
Post #37 of 40
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Race and Gender (and age) - Mestizo, Male, 18
Current Income - enough to pay my rent
Household Income - middle class, lower middle class when I started climbing
Race/Class/Gender unimportant - I really have never seen any racism against climbers, but there aren't that many minority climbers in the U.S.
Diversity? Why? - The main reason there aren't as many minority climbers is economic. The majority of climbers tend to come from the middle class, with much fewer coming from low-income homes. Someone mentioned that you can get started climbing for $200. However, remember that you need more than just gear to start climbing. Unless you live right by a boulderfield, you are going to have some extra costs involved in climbing (gas, food, etc.) or have to add a monthly fee to a climbing gym. And unlike more major sports like baseball and football, there is no chance of a college scholarship for climbing (I can only imagine how cool it would be to get a full-ride scholarship for climbing). Also, a basketball court outside in a low-income neighborhood is not uncommon at all, as they tend to be in urban centers, so you will see a lot of minorities playing basketball. If there was a large boulder in the middle of every ghetto you'd see some more climbers.
The same logic applies for skiing/snowboarding. Think of how many known professional black snowboarders there are. Most can only name Keir Dillon. Same economic reasons, as well as geographic. Ski towns tend to be mostly middle to upper class and mostly white. I lived in Telluride, CO for about 6 years; the school was 99% white and 1% me.
However, if you look at places like the Rocklands in S. Africa, you will see a higher amount of black climbers, despite the fact that even there climbing is a mostly white, middle class pursuit. The ones that do climb there are using old shoes, gear, etc, and are cranking 5.12 consistently.
One last thing, you should research the history of alpinism and race some as well, as it links pretty well to your argument about extreme sports.
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jkarns
Apr 15, 2005, 4:48 PM
Post #38 of 40
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Yes, basketball is an exception... sort of... There is very little cost involved other than the initial investment of the court which somebody has to pay for.
Of course, a good pair of basketball shoes costs the same as rock climbing shoes, but it is easier to get away with poor footwear in basketball.
I guess my point is that HUGE amounts of public funds go into ball sports, building playing areas for all levels from little league to professional athletes. This mostrous influx of public funds allows the poor to participate in the activities; its not that the activities themselves are cheap.
Imagine if this kind of money was spent on climbing. Climbing gyms at more high schools. outdoor bouldering walls in city parks.
Yes there is gas expense to get to real rock, but I bet bulk of the U.S. population lives within a half hour of outdoor climbing of some sort.
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dynamo_
Apr 15, 2005, 5:04 PM
Post #39 of 40
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What is your race and gender? White Male
What is your current income?
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time?
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? I feel that it doesn't matter. Why would it?
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? Nope
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? I don't feel that there is much diversity in the climbing areas I am in. In fact, I have never seen any races other than White. I feel that this may be due to exclusivism based on the general demographic of folks involved. Middle class white folks bring middle class white folks to the sport. I may be wrong.
(This post was edited by dynamo_ on Dec 14, 2006, 9:13 PM)
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slablizard
Apr 15, 2005, 5:22 PM
Post #40 of 40
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What is your race and gender?
Italian :lol: Male.
What is your current income?
40/70 K
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially
what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time?
Student (1985) middle class
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant?
Yes
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class?
No
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is?
Different interests in different cultures. I rarely see black guys climbing, I do climb regularly with an iranian woman (way strong! ) wearing islamic scarfs, many asians, indians...
If there are any questions anyone feels I have missed or if there is any comments please feel free to post them. Thank you.
J.P.
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