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nebo
May 17, 2005, 12:22 AM
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Today (May 16, 2004) an organization in Southern California posted some chilling photos. See: http://www.thegardendiet.com/images/climb
The narrative with the photos describes the situation.
They depict a young woman free-soloing a 70-foot near vertical rock wall, with her daughter, aged 10 or less, free soloing with her. The rock looks rotten and the route looks about 5.5 or so. The mom and little girl were encouraged to free-solo by the father/husband, a man named "storm" who leads seminars and retreats about raw food vegan diets. He apparently has been climbing for 25 years. He also has apparently positioned himself as something of a guru, passing this type of climb off as a mystical/spiritual event.
To my mind, this is an outrageous example of child endangerment. Steps have been taken to contact protective services. However, I believe it may be helpful if members of the climbing community emailed this couple to try to penetrate their addled minds with some notion of responsibility. Mothers speaking to Jinjee (the mother) may be particularly helpful. If you agree, please email Storm and Jinjee at: info@thegardendiet.com
I suggest including a brief synopsis of your own experience as a climber, and other detials that would help them understand why you are qualified to have an opinion on the matter (for example, you may have raised children that lived past their 10th birthday).
A flood of emails may save a life or two.
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cosmiccragsman
May 17, 2005, 12:57 AM
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Thanks nebo
I emailed them. Storm is definitely a jerk. Someone should turn him in to
C.P.S.
cosmiccragsman
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gwenhwyvar
May 17, 2005, 1:11 AM
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Wow, these people are nuts. I looked at the pictures the link was given for and that's just not safe. It's one thing if they want to endanger their own lives, but it's another to endanger their daughter like that. I'm not sure that legal action needs to be taken against them (although it might), but people definitely need to write in to let these people know what's up. I'm a noob, so I don't think they'll take anything I say seriously, but if some older and wiser people could write in and explain that making your ten year old daughter climb without rope (even a 5.5) is a horrible idea, that would be great. If you read the text under the pictures it sounds like these people were intentionally taunting death. The scariest quote I found was: "Its not about today being a good day to live. Its about today being a good day to die. Its about today being a good day to do something really big, to have an adventure, to throw your useless life away." This is the husband talking to his wife, telling her why she and their ten year old daughter should climb without a rope. Please, somebody verbally slap them around. This is ridiculous.
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coldclimb
May 17, 2005, 1:19 AM
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And what about the part where the daughter is "pretending" to be scared? :shock:
Something is WRONG with those people.
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shorty
May 17, 2005, 1:22 AM
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Nebo,
Given that this is your first post and that you have not filled out a personal profile, it is challenging to determine your involvement with this story. But you have certainly picked a website where the concept of free soloing can draw an audience.
IMO, free soloing should be done only by those climbers with the proper skills, experience, and understanding to evaluate the risks. I seriously doubt the woman and child are in this category. I would shudder to think that people I know and care for would be doing such a thing. However, I also respect people's right to choose to do just about anything they desire (within limits to society's rules, of course).
So here's the point of my rambling. I don't know these people. Long ago I started to realize I can't save the world, the whales, the what-ever-itz-bekistan tree frog, or most of the people in my home town. But I can make some impact on the people in my family, at my place of work, in my circle of friends, and that I love. If you truly wish to change the actions of this family, may I be so bold to recommend that the people closest to them -- whose opinions they trust -- will have the most impact. I doubt that e-mails from a number of unknown climbing bums will do much more than clog up their computers.
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cyanamid
May 17, 2005, 1:24 AM
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Maybe its just my eyes... but look at the first and last picture specifically, notice anything funny about the trees? or the vegetation growing out of the rock? like perhaps the pictures need to be rotated 20 degrees clockwise?
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 1:33 AM
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Good point about not disclosing where I'm coming from.
I don't personally know these people at all. But I started climbing in 1971, taught climbing and guided in the Sierras for over a decade, and have witnessed and had plenty of close calls.
I have also free-soloed, when I was younger and in my prime. I remember one incident where I was free-soloing on Gibralter Rock in Santa Barbara--this would have been around 1978 or so--and someone gave me a good high-volume scolding, yelling at me from the road while I was climbing. We had a heated discussion afterwards; I was certain that I knew what I was doing and was safe. He was on the S&R crew and was enraged that I was taking such a stupid risk. I didn't stop soloing, and have soloed on first ascent (a 5.9) and up to 5.10--but that's all long in the past.
I have written guidebooks, trained guides, led many peak climbs...
...and have raised my own children.
You can see immediately what triggers me in these photos. I generally keep to myself, don't poke my nose into other people's business, am quite slow to anger. That's why I haven't been active on these boards. It's why I haven't left much of a personal profile. But this, IMHO, is over the top.
My guess is that Storm has passed himself off as some kind of guru, and his young wife Jinjee totally buys it. I can't imagine a mother allowing this kind of risk to her child unless she is in some kind of deluded trance state. I don't think one letter from me will be enough to break the trance. That's why I hit on the idea of asking the climbing community at large to respond. A flood of common sense may be enough to break the dam of stupidity, where a the trickle of single letter would not.
And this is serious--Raven (the little girl) survived the day the photos were shot. Did she survive today? Will she survive tomorrow? Does Jinjee understand the concept of never seeing her daughter's smile or hearing her laughter again?
Even if we write from rage, fundamentally this about compassion.
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 1:37 AM
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I did notice that the photos appeared to be rotated, but I wasn't sure. Raven's posture on the "bulge" photo seems correct for the apparent angle. Sometimes downward shots can skew appearances.
At any rate, you die just as well falling from a 60-degree face as you do from a 90-degree face. So I hope that if this face is slightly lower angle than appears that we don't accept it as justification for endangering the child. Nor should we accept Jinjee's rationale that Storm has extensively trained the child. How many of best-trained friends have we lost to a moment of carelessness, a loose hold, an unforeseen event?
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shorty
May 17, 2005, 1:39 AM
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In reply to: Maybe its just my eyes... but look at the first and last picture specifically, notice anything funny about the trees? or the vegetation growing out of the rock? like perhaps the pictures need to be rotated 20 degrees clockwise?
My warped sense of humor is suddenly recalling the old Batman series -- the camera angles for the fights ("pow", "bam", "zowie") and the shots of Batman and Robin "climbing" the rope hand-over-hand as an actor does a cameo appearance out a window.
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cyanamid
May 17, 2005, 1:42 AM
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Nebo - I can see what triggers the upset response. If you have photoshop, or most any photo software, grab the first and last pics. Rotate them 25 - 30 degrees to the right. Suddenly that near vertical rock wall is not so vertical. Seriously, if it weren't for the copyright issues I'd post the edited photos myself. Its probably 4th class, I doubt if the "climb" would reach 5th class status.
Not that I am condoning the activity, even the appearance of letting a child do something that dangerous is insanely stupid. Realize though, that the pictures were obviously "dramatized" for effect.
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lostdog
May 17, 2005, 2:01 AM
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it's funny... just earlier today i was remarking to my brother how stupid people are. i kindy felt guity afterwards...now, i'm glad to have found reassurance...fuckin' idiots!!
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 2:05 AM
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I'm a little worried that this discussion will become a detective game to figure out what the correct angle is. Let's agree that the photos have been shot off-angle to dramatize the effect. In fact, let's agree that the route may be no more than 4th class.
And then let's remember what the original concern was, and ask if it's still valid. Are these parents putting themselves and their daughter at serious risk in an irresponsible way? If so, let's each individually decide if we feel we are authentically motivated to give the parents some advice, scolding, guidance, or a dose of rage--whichever is honest for who we are, as individuals. If so, please write to them.
I believe it can make a difference, a contribution toward reducing the risk for little Raven.
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powen
May 17, 2005, 2:11 AM
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It appears the pictures were dramatized a bit... Along with the accomplishments:
"He developed many of the methods used in training for freestyle mountain climbing although this is not a commonly taught sport."
I try to be well read on the basics of climbing... you know, John Long, Freedom of the Hills... Am I missing the "Are You Ready to Die Today: Free-Soloing for the Vegan Soul" by STORM (Insert Moses-like voice from above)?
I mean seriously, if this guy really did develop a lot of methods of training for free soloing, I would love to see that. Maybe I've just missed that tidbit.
Yeah, maybe.
Cough.
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codhands
May 17, 2005, 2:29 AM
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Most stupid thing I have seen in a while. I'm glad they got their mojo on or whatever but i would seriously like to do some play fighting with "storm" to improve his raw veg synapses. The lamest part is that if those two had taken a header this guy storm probably would have been like, "They ended this wasteful crappy life and found their bliss or something. Just a speculation. cs
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thegreytradster
May 17, 2005, 2:31 AM
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You might be interested in the reaction of the "climbing comunity to your publicity stunt.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/88965
Lots of thoughts on this one.
First of all, my son followed me up the White Maiden Direct at Tahquitz at about the same age. Just the two of us. But, I'd done the route maybe half a dozen times, he was , (and still is) exceptionaly mature for his age, had a helmet, and had already demonstrated the abillity to catch me on a short lead fall.
I still approached it as a solo and although there are many who might throw the accusitory barb, the situation was under control. My only regret was that the whole excursion was right at his young endurance limit. Comments he's made in his 20's though indicate that it was an extremely formative event in his life and I'm glad we shared the experience.
I see this as something completely different. This is an attempt to commercialy capitalize on puting his child and spouse in a completely uncontrolled and dangerous situation. This is as irresponsable as if I'd taken my son along on some of my youthfull explorations of 3rd and 4th class choss in the San Gabriels, (long before he was born). There probably are camera tricks involved. That doesn't eliminate the objective dangers still present, (choss) and the lack of any protection, at the minimum a helmet. Disregard for the saftey of ones progeny happens often out of ignorance of the dangers or sometimes just social convention.
Making it a commercial event is criminal, (or should be)
The guy is a self serving nut!
CC Rockclimbing .com
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teamkonarider
May 17, 2005, 2:52 AM
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Wow amzing what emotionally weak people will so these days
Im shocked
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majid_sabet
May 17, 2005, 4:58 AM
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NICE photos, looking at it as investigator, I did not know plants and trees grow at 30 degrees off set, real or photoshop made, the game is stupid, all you need is one accident and soon after county, state or national park will close the area for all, climbers or walkers will be prohibited from accessing the boulder or the area, can you stop them, the answer is no, not now not ever, however you should step in and tell them that what they are doing is dangerous, if mom or dad give you a hard time just call 911 , now I would not say that to bunch of boulder rates, they will kick your ass.
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storm
May 17, 2005, 5:07 AM
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To the Rockclimbing Forum
From Storm (Raven's Dad)
I have been doing this type of work for over thirty years. And I have been hearing the same thing from the rock climbing community not the whole community just parts of it. I have worked with hundreds of kids and never had one person fall. This is not something that I approach lightly and I totally understand your feelings. Even though I don't agree with them.
My oldest son (Snow)is now twenty nine and he start climbing when he was two years old. He has never fallen and through my work with him other parents wanted me to work with their children too. This led to a full time adventure school that lasted for over five years from 1980 to 1985. In the Ojai Area. We did heavy weather sailing on a forty foot boat, we did hang gliding and we did scuba diving, as well as mountain climbing. Every week for five years we did one of the above activities with never an injury. I have been written up in newspapers and had children referred to me by the probation department. I have worked closely with private schools and I also worked with gang kids and other kids at risk. Had huge sucesses with getting them off of drugs and turning young lives around.
One of the main problems is that our kids never have to put anything on the line so they never get a real sense of who they are or who their parents are for that matter because they never see them in action.
You are so quick to point your finger and say that this is too dangerous, but you have no idea how much training and study went into the series of climbs that we did. It took Jinjee 10 years to reach a point where she could flow up a 7 story face. Raven climbed it first with ropes and then she climbed it without ropes but with me right behind her and her last climb will be solo. It may not happen until she is in her twenties it is totally up to her. When I show her the posts on this site and asked her if at any time she was scared her answer was "Not really." One solo climb (Gilbraltar Rock in Santa Barbara) that I did with my son at the age of 17 he had to back off of and then last week he went back and finished it at the age of twenty nine. It was huge for him to come back after being spooked for 11 years.
I have climbed a 20 story face three times without ropes (Sepse Gorge Ending Crack) and have climbed Topa Topa (six thousand feet) five times without ropes. Most of it was rotten rock.
It wasn't a commercial event this is what we do all of the time. I was just sharing one of the things that I think make us different as a family. We live and climb in the Ojai area and most of the rock in the back country is rotten and after a while you learn to develop a feeling for which rocks are sound.
I wish that there was some way that I could share how bonded we are as a family. All five of my children where born at home with just Jinjee and myself. I got a lot of heat for that also. All of my kids started climbing small rocks at around the age of two. And have a skill level that is way beyond what anyone would believe who didn't actually know them. We are not weekend warriors who go to the mountain on the weekend once a month. We live in the mountains and climb just about eveyday. The climbs are all round our house this is what we do. The bottom line to all of this is that they are at much more of a risk driving down off of the mountain to town in a box that is made of metal and glass filled with gasoline traveling at 70 miles a hour than they are doing these climbs that they have been doing all of their lives.
So I get the feeling that what are you really trying to say is. That I shouldn't take my kids sailing because the boat might sink. I should not let them climb trees because the branch might break, I shouldn't let them ride a bike but it is ok if I drive around with them in a car because that does not offend anyone and everybody does it, even though thousands of kids die every year. I disagree with the position that you have taken. I think that we should teach our kids to look life right in the eye without flinching.
All the best
storm
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nebo
May 17, 2005, 5:31 AM
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Hi Storm, I see you checked in. What do you have to say? Anything to enlighten us?
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storm
May 17, 2005, 5:49 AM
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Hi Nebo, see above.
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majid_sabet
May 17, 2005, 6:01 AM
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http://www.voea.vic.edu.au/issues/riskmanagement/chris_loynes.htm
http://www.vglaw.com/html/or_kids_liability.shtml
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pendereki
May 17, 2005, 6:03 AM
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I would also like to welcome Storm to the forum. I like your backyard!
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crotch
May 17, 2005, 6:07 AM
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Please arrest all the Anasazi for letting their kids live in cliffs. Oh yeah, take kids away from anyone who let's them ride horses, go toproping, or get sunburned. All these activities are too damn dangerous for my taste.
Thanks,
NOOB
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maculated
May 17, 2005, 7:41 AM
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I'm torn here. And I don't think I have any right to post to something this personal, but I think I may have something to offer to both sides of this coin.
Storm's points that he offers as validity have some merit to them: remember when you first went climbing? Didn't everyone think you were crazy? Isn't it nutso that we encourage our children to take up this activity? Storm's not someone I would consider to be a part of this climbing community - he isn't aware of terminology, so I have to assume that he is operating at the 1960s or earlier level of climbing. People did that then, too. He's not exactly standing on the shoulders of giants here, he's going about it John Muir style.
But the community's points are valid, too. Putting wife and daughter in harm's way, making it a "celebratory moment" on a promotional web page, angling the camera to make it appear even more dangerous than it is (because when I was wee, I would scamper up that grade, too, to my parents' consternation).
At what point are we putting children in harm's way to achieve an end that fits our idea of a good lifestyle? This is an ideology thing.
Those of us who hold tightly to the dominant culture's ideals of what is appropriate (perhaps it is TRing with your kids, or else it is driving them to soccer games) and what is not will not be able to see what those of us who say that whatever it is that feeds you or is a part of you (crotch had a good point about the Anasazi . . . CPS would have been called on them if they'd been around).
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healyje
May 17, 2005, 10:53 AM
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Storm,
I share a lot of your general beliefs relative to challenging youth, have worked in stress-challenge programs, trained many young climbers, and done many "adventure" activities as well along with climbing for 30 years; but we part company over how and when we choose to apply our personal "influence" with others - family or otherwise. And the principal difference from my perspective is the impact of such "influence" on decision-making.
You imparting your love of adventure, challenge, and self-responsibility is noble on many fronts, but crosses the line in my view when you then don't allow others to arrive at decisions on their own. And let me be clear about the distinction between "arriving" at decisions and "making" decisions. It would appear to me that in your world view you are right [if not righteous] and justified in bringing or driving folks to decision points as "rites of passage" versus letting them find there own way - and in [most] professional and parental roles I understand this. Where it becomes a problem for me as a climber, parent, and educator is when you start picking the time and place for a "rite of passage" such as the climb you've presented on your website.
In my worldview I try to set the stage for others to have the spirit, capabilities, confidence, and wisdom to know when it's time for them to step up to a challenge - but when it comes to free soloing of any kind I respect and allow each and every individual to find themselves at, come to, or otherwise simply arrive at such climbing experiences on their own. And to be frank and up front here, free soloing is too personal an experience for me to ever consider externalizing it to others for any purpose.
So the idea and precedent that free soloing would be externalized and held up as a [formalized/socialized] "rite of passage" or maturation/educational tool of any kind is somewhat disquieting to me (it kind of sullies the purity of the whole deal, sort of like deciding your kid shouldn't be a virgin anymore...) and I also simply believe you overstep your bounds and roles as an educator and parent when it comes to deciding when others are ready to free solo whether you are right or not - that somewhere in the hurried confluence of passion, purpose, love, lifestyle, belief, and business you might want to reconsider how and why you influence others.
Joseph
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