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all_that_is_rock
Jun 13, 2005, 1:07 AM
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with all the new clean aid gear, and advances in cams, one would think pitons have become obsolete. can you think of any situation a piton could protect somthing that a cam, nut, offset nut, brassie, bashy, oranyothernewfangledgear couldnt??? the only obvios use I can see is a cheap retreat.
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devkrev
Jun 13, 2005, 1:18 AM
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yo,
I think that knifeblades/bugaboos are the only pins that work where no clean gear can be really considered "bomber". The seams you can bash those into any micro anything probably isn't that good
But what do I know.
later
dev
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jhwnewengland
Jun 13, 2005, 1:22 AM
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I've been thinking about this question lately, as I've never placed a piton but have some non-clean aid routes on the ticklist. I'd love to hear some examples as well. Here's one I can think of:
A RURP seam--no clean aid gear that I know of would fit into a tiny seam in the rock, but RURPs do because they are small and deform the rock slightly. Keep in mind that the more pitons are pounded into the seam the bigger it will get, hence the concept of productive scarring--removing pins in a way that facilitates a clean placement in the future.
Also, are bashies considered clean? I don't think so but am certainly no authority.
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jhwnewengland
Jun 13, 2005, 1:26 AM
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Yup, thin blades too. Again the seam is too small for clean gear. Good call.
Any other places? How about flakes? I remember a recent post about hand-placing pitons on free routes, in which the poster recommended placing pins (lost arrows or angles would be best) into a crack from above. When you have a crack behind a flake that is a jug handhold, a cam would be sticking straight up. Weighting the cam would horribly deform it, probably permanently. In that case a pin would be better.
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jhwnewengland
Jun 13, 2005, 1:50 AM
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Yeah good call, I forgot about that option. Ok, so the crack behind the flake is only 2 mm wide, and we're back to the knifeblade option. I guess I'd only carry LAs or angles on winter mixed ground or new route attempts.
A local route, "Children and Alcohol," is A3 and is NOT clean (unless someone just did it and left all their gear fixed, which isn't considered cool. What do you think this entails? Is a thin crack the only case where you'd have a non-clean A3 pitch?
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 13, 2005, 1:51 AM
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go and try some harder aid and you will learn for yourself the aplication of beaks, blades, small wires hooks etc. pretty much the only justifiable use for larger angles is in soultion pockets too narrow for cams or tricams. you will see a lot of them as fixed gear on whitehorse in solution pockets. Another good use for angles is in sharp horozantols that would shred a cam wire. I placed an angle as fixed gear on a spurt climb where a cam would get wrecked if fallen on. Another legitamet use is alpine climbing where cracks are iced up and the only way to get good gear is to pound it in. Even lost arrows are often good in places that no clean gear will fit.
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jhwnewengland
Jun 13, 2005, 1:52 AM
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It seems like in all but the THINNIST of seams, a small cam hook would work too... but that's scary. Maybe it does come down to a question of daring (balls?).
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jhwnewengland
Jun 13, 2005, 2:19 AM
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Thanks Tradman, that's good info. I definitely recall seeing angles in pockets on Whitehorse, and as fixed gear on sport climbs at Rumney. The good mixed climbers I've followed here in the Adirondacks always have a couple on their racks as well.
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texplorer
Jun 13, 2005, 7:35 AM
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Great Question!
With mirconuts, offset aliens and various hooks the hammering has really gone down but here are some situations.
-no, not all thin cracks will take a cam hook. This can be because of the angle of the crack or irregularities in the crack.
-some placements are so flaring that no camor mirconut will stick
-of course the ultra thin seams/cracks
-very poor rock quality in which traditional clean pro would shatter the rock
One last thing to consider- if you have just done 4 hook moves in a row, clipped two crappy #1 copperheads and cam hooked three more placements would you rather your last placement before these be a nice fat pin or a tipped out alien? There are many situations that will go clean but at C4 but most people elect to make them A2 but I guess that's a different topic.
To answer the original Question:
No, we still can use pins since they can also be used cleanly if hand placed in old piton scars.
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all_that_is_rock
Jun 13, 2005, 11:26 PM
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thanks texplorer, thats sort of the answer I was looking for. someone else mentioned icey cracks....duh... I can't believe I forgote about that one.
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tchamber
Jun 14, 2005, 12:15 AM
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Only on RC.com do you get 10 people who don't climb aid responding to a moderately technical question in the aid forum.
I LOVE IT :lol:
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philbox
Moderator
Jun 14, 2005, 12:22 AM
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There is also the situation where the rock is extremely soft. We have a mountain near me called Mt. Beerwah in the Glasshouse mountains. The overhung headwall is way soft rock that if you used trad gear on would simply crumble. The strange thing is that pitons are bomber. It seems that upon bashing pitons in it consolidates the rock. You can basically drill the rock by hand with a piton and yet bash one in and you will find it difficulat to get it out. The rock is volcanic.
When faced with a thin closed seam very tiny birdbeaks are awesome in this rock. Palce an RP though and it will simply rip.
So to use the famous cliche It depends (c).
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texplorer
Jun 14, 2005, 3:13 AM
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Only on RC.com do you get 10 people who don't climb aid responding to a moderately technical question in the aid forum from a guy with a slacklining picture and gumbie helmet shot in his bio.
I LOVE IT TOO :wink: :o
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dangle
Jun 20, 2005, 7:01 PM
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With a title like "out with pitons" I'm surprised nobody has gone into detail on the selfish practises in their use and the resulting negative impacts.
Also, I doubt very much that I want to know what tradmanclimbs defines as a SPURT climb...
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islandclimber
Jun 21, 2005, 4:45 AM
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I love a good nail-up, get a hammer, have some fun.
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steezy
Jun 21, 2005, 5:07 AM
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kxs
\s
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blawless
Jun 21, 2005, 5:33 AM
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This is the AID climbing forum?
What’s happened to this place???
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tomtom
Jun 21, 2005, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: I'm surprised nobody has gone into detail on the selfish practises in their use and the resulting negative impacts.
Round here pin scars have turned aid climbs into free climbs.
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euroford
Jun 21, 2005, 10:53 PM
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i think it will be hard to replace rurps, peckers or blades with anything clean for the really thin stuff, and i think most larger pins can be done without except some very odd pockets and perhaps dealing with expando.
cam hooks sure are a help.
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dangle
Jun 23, 2005, 5:20 AM
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Hey euro,
they have their place but if it doesn't lead to tomtom's free routes where do you end up? And if everyone has their hand in it where is the element of design? And if there isn't any element of design what are we saying by evolving such climbs?
And most importantly WTF have I been ingesting?
gsdutfoiunpo nyhv5t.......
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ricardol
Jun 23, 2005, 6:02 AM
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In reply to: This is the AID climbing forum? What’s happened to this place???
most people who used to post here moved on to supertaco
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euroford
Jun 23, 2005, 12:23 PM
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In reply to: And most importantly WTF have I been ingesting? gsdutfoiunpo nyhv5t.......
yummy!!!
ya know, i've stopped in at that place but never bothered to setup a logon or anything. i'm not that crazy about it, and the forum format blowwwwwwws.
i will however, now have to stop at chipotle for lunch, especially becouse i have a free burrito coupon! woohoo!!
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dangle
Jun 23, 2005, 8:21 PM
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It wasn't the supertaco its what I washed it down with.
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ricardol
Jun 23, 2005, 11:44 PM
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chipotle doesn't come close to the hole-in-the-wall taquerias of the mission district in S.F. ..
ahh -- and now an aid related topic..
i have spent much time trying to think about how to keep a few burritos during a wall .. it would be awesome to break into a Super Burrito Deluxe with carne asade on a bivy on el cap ..
but i dont think they will keep --- perhaps if we skipped the sour cream ..
any thoughts? ..
.. any other food that you guys wish you could bring on a wall
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