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mother_sheep
Jun 14, 2005, 2:56 PM
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To the belayer: NEVER, EVER, EVER take your partner off belay unless you are 100% certain that they are ready to be taken off ands are secure. If the communication is poor, NEVER, EVER assume that your partner is secure just because you heard your partner yell something.
To the climber: Before weighting the rope to be lowered, always test to see that your belayer has you firm before you head down. Same goes for the rappel, if you’re rappelling. Weight your rope before you take yourself off of the anchor. It takes 1 second!
On 2 occasions this Spring, I witnessed a friend of mine get taken off when he wasn’t ready and it happened to me last night. Fortunately, I was at a firm stance and immediately grabbed the anchors when I heard my partner yell, “OFF BELAY”.
To the person who did this, please know that you are dear to me and I’m not knocking you if you read this. I know you learned a big lesson last night and will be a better belayer having experienced this.
I’m posting this because people need to pay attention to what they’re doing. Mistakes like this can and have taken lives. This is all basic stuff too. Feel free to post any other common sense stuff here too. Who knows. . .maybe someone will pay attention to it and remember it.
Already this year there have been a couple of accidents that could have/should have been prevented. Thanks!
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overlord
Jun 14, 2005, 3:04 PM
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ditto that. i have a habit of checking everything before unclipping from the anchors and it probably saved my bones if not life at least once.
good communication is essential for safety. remember to call you partner by name if its a busy crag and make sure he understands you.
another common sense things to keep in mind:
dont rap or lower over a sharp edge
dont grip bolts, dont thread your rope through one either. biners are cheap, your life and limbs arent
remember to check your partner before you or him goes onto the sharp end (if youre the leader, check the belay device, if youre the belayer check the knots)
if youre the belayer try to warn the leader before he makes a mistake (z and clipping)
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andrewbanandrew
Jun 14, 2005, 3:07 PM
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If you are unfamiliar with how a Gri Gri works, ask your belayer to explain it to you--I made a mistake when I just assumed they knew what they were doing, and they threaded it backwards...
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angelaa
Jun 14, 2005, 3:08 PM
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Glad your Ok Mother_Sheep!
Near Misses are quite scary!
Thanks for the reminder, as all of us need it from time to time!
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zoratao
Jun 14, 2005, 3:25 PM
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Communications is an interesting problem and I have thought about this a lot since I have started to climb. I am ex-military so the comms has been something that I have thought about a lot over the years. I think that the climber should be considered more or less in charge of the climbg, afterall they are responsible for their safety. The belayer is as well but you can never fault a belayer 100% the climber is always at least 10% responsible for any accident, it is their responsibility to ensure that they climb with a safe belayer.
There are two types of actions going on when climbing those in which a command or action is immediately necessary and those in which they are not. I am fairly uncomfortable when my belayer doesn't acknowledge that they heard what I have said.
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mother_sheep
Jun 14, 2005, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: Communications is an interesting problem and I have thought about this a lot since I have started to climb. I am ex-military so the comms has been something that I have thought about a lot over the years. I think that the climber should be considered more or less in charge of the climbg, afterall they are responsible for their safety. The belayer is as well but you can never fault a belayer 100% the climber is always at least 10% responsible for any accident, it is their responsibility to ensure that they climb with a safe belayer. There are two types of actions going on when climbing those in which a command or action is immediately necessary and those in which they are not. I am fairly uncomfortable when my belayer doesn't acknowledge that they heard what I have said.
I disagree with you to a certain extent. When I yelled “Take” and my partner responded with “Off Belay” , how would I be at all responsible had I fallen? Suppose I was not at a solid stance or I could not reach the anchors? Not to mention the fact that there are moments when someone yells “Take” they might be in a position where they need to be held, be it because they can’t hold on, etc. . . What happens if your partner takes you off then? But it’s not about fault. And when I’m belaying my partner, I look at it like that person’s life is literally in my hands and take 100% responsibility and accountability for my job as a belayer. Had the tables been turned and I took my partner off and he fell, I would view it as 100% my fault.
But, can we Please keep this thread in the direction for which it was intended? I'd like for people to post warnings/advice in this thread.
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mgoodro
Jun 14, 2005, 3:46 PM
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The belayer should always be aware of their climber.
Out climbing recently, I was on belay and another team was on the route next to us. Their belayer was busy checking out my gear and chatting up the merits of various pieces. His climber fell, was caught by his Cinch, and he didn't even notice until he was lifted off his seat. Even using a Gri-Gri or a Cinch is no excuse for inattentive belaying. There was significant slack out and the climber fell close to 10 feet before the Cinch kicked in. The climber was understandably perturbed.
The best part of this story is where this belayer asks me if I'd like to go climbing sometime, as he has a hard time finding partners.
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dirtineye
Jun 14, 2005, 4:07 PM
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Complacency is your enemy.
Don't take safety for granted.
Be aware.
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mbg
Jun 14, 2005, 4:21 PM
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Communication before the climber leaves the ground is extremely important. I think it’s especially key in one-pitch cragging situations where belayers are often distracted. Make sure the climber and belayer are in agreement as to what’s going to happen when the climber reaches the anchors. It is SO much easier than trying to shout up/down 100 ft to your partner over big trucks, river noise, etc.
If the climber is going to thread and lower then the words “off” and “belay” don’t even need to be spoken. The climber can ask for slack or tension but there is no reason for them to be taken off belay. If it is communicated that the climber is going to rap then the belayer knows that once their partner is secure at the anchors (if it’s too loud to talk, agree on a hand or rope signal that means off belay) their duty is done for that route and it’s all in the climber’s hands.
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bluenose
Jun 14, 2005, 4:24 PM
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My daughter (11 yrs) checks the knots and device before she goes up, at the time she didn't know how the gri-gri worked (gym rules, under 14, no belaying) so I told her she should still get in the habit of checking everything anyway. Start early with the good habits.
We snorkel some and use hand signs often while submerged (I dive too and you must rely on hand signals for some pretty complex information occassionally). I was thinking of some hand signals that could be used when unsure of the message.
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mother_sheep
Jun 14, 2005, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: Communication before the climber leaves the ground is extremely important. I think it’s especially key in one-pitch cragging situations where belayers are often distracted. Make sure the climber and belayer are in agreement as to what’s going to happen when the climber reaches the anchors. It is SO much easier than trying to shout up/down 100 ft to your partner over big trucks, river noise, etc. If the climber is going to thread and lower then the words “off” and “belay” don’t even need to be spoken. The climber can ask for slack or tension but there is no reason for them to be taken off belay. If it is communicated that the climber is going to rap then the belayer knows that once their partner is secure at the anchors (if it’s too loud to talk, agree on a hand or rope signal that means off belay) their duty is done for that route and it’s all in the climber’s hands.
Agreed. In this situation, I lead the route and he was going to TR the route. Common knowledge on a sport climb (at least from my experiences) is that the leader clips into the anchors and the belayer lowers. The other individuals that were with us heard, "Take".
Bluenose, the only hand signal I was tempted to use was the international sigh for @%^$ you!
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kubi
Jun 14, 2005, 5:19 PM
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The belayer should never let go of the brake end of the rope, no matter what.
Last weekend at the New the belayer next to me would take in lots of slack by putting both hands on the climber's end of the rope, pull in the slack, then put both hands on the brake end to haul in the slack. It scared me.
In reply to: don't rap over a sharp edge
is there any easy solution to this? I could be missing something, but I can't think of any besides retreating from the last bolt if you see a sharp edge coming or downlclimbing past the edge if you want to finish the climb.
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amber
Jun 14, 2005, 5:22 PM
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Glad that no one was hurt, and it's always good for those of us who are learning to have the constant reminder that effective communication is mission critical. Here are some things that I do, especially when climbing with someone who I'm not dialed into.
Whenever I'm climbing near a road, river, lots of other climbers, or anything else that could hinder communication, I will suggest that we work out hand and rope signals to indicate when the belay is on or off. In situations where you cant see or hear the leader, it becomes especially spooky.
On rope signals, the leader will generally give three solid tugs on the rope to indicate that it's safe to take them off belay. One of my partners even went through the rope/hand signals on a route where I could still see/hear him. At first, I thought it was kinda silly, but I couldnt see or hear him when he got to the top of the next pitch, so I was pretty psyched that he had made me feel silly because I was confident in my understanding of his rope signals - smart guy.
The second is considered on belay when the rope is tight and stays that way while you climb. The leader will also generally give a good, solid tug on the rope when the belay is officially on, but I dont always feel it so I just go up a couple of feet and make sure the rope is going up with me. If not, I'll go back to the ground and rinse/repeat until it stays tight - ie, I KNOW that they're pulling the slack as I move. I've also found that my partners will give a pretty tight belay until they know that I'm moving, mostly because I'm tiny and it can be hard to tell when I'm moving and when I'm being hauled up a route instead of climbing it.
I'm also in the habit of directly stating or asking (depending on if I'm leading or belaying) what will happen when the leader gets to the top. For example, "When I get to the top, I will setup the anchor, have you take me off belay, set up a rappel and then come down." or "When I get to the top, I'll setup the anchor and just have you lower me." or "When you get to the top, are you going to rappel or should I lower you?" (assuming of course, that we're not doing a multipitch). For me, it's become part of the communication that goes on when ropes are being flaked and harnesses put on.
On the flipside, it's definitely a GOOD THING that the belayer communicated what s/he was doing, even if the action was supposed to be "take" instead of "off belay." Think of if she had just shouted "Okay" and taken you off belay when you understand "okay" to mean, "you're on me". /shudder/
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larryd
Jun 14, 2005, 5:49 PM
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This is one of those times where there is actually an advantage to being an over-the-hill old-timer: we never use "take" as a command. Sounds too much like "... belay." This is the principle behind the phonetic alphabet (alpha, bravo, charlie, etc); have a separate set sounds to distinguish each letter (or command).
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bullet_proof
Jun 14, 2005, 6:03 PM
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Hey Larry,
I think it is your "old time" hearing.
Take and belay do not sound alike. :wink:
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amber
Jun 14, 2005, 6:46 PM
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In reply to: Hey Larry, I think it is your "old time" hearing. Take and belay do not sound alike. :wink:
I dunno, I'm pretty sparky and I can see his point. They both have the long A sound. When words are muffled by things like cars, wind, rivers, crying babies, etc, you dont make out the whole word, you hear the strongest syllable. For "take" - it's "A". For belay - it's "A".
Personally, I generally say "up rope" if I want less slack and I either grunt or say a random assortment of words that would get auto-censored if I'm scared or about to fall.
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larryd
Jun 14, 2005, 6:56 PM
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In reply to: Hey Larry, I think it is your "old time" hearing. Take and belay do not sound alike. :wink:
Well, you're right about the hearing-- but Amber understands the rationale.
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bullet_proof
Jun 14, 2005, 7:44 PM
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Larry, Amber,
Let's try a thought experiment.
"BELAY" "I AM YOU ASS" No, no problem there.
"Off TAKE" Nah, you wouldn't even say that...
Nah, sorry guys, I don't see a problem with those two terms. I get the syllable thing. Just not the spelling of syllable... :?
I think you two are extending from the "up rope" and "Slack" thing.
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mother_sheep
Jun 14, 2005, 7:48 PM
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Well, I heard him say off belay pretty darn clearly! The problem was that my partner didn't know what he was doing. There was no reason to ever take me off belay anyway. Like I said, common sense.
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cupton
Jun 14, 2005, 7:52 PM
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DOUBLE CHECK YOURSELF AND YOUR PARTNER!!
I was climbing in the gym and was almost flattened by an experienced gym employee (not working) deck from 35ft due to the fact she did not tie in correctly. She ended up with a shattered pelvis but could have been much worse.
I looked up and watched her fall the entire distance. One of those slow motion type events. Terrifying. She was just distracted tying in chatting to her friend and was not paying attention.
Also for commands make sure that you and your partner use the same commands as not to be confused. Also for windy days, loud crags develop a tug system that both you and your partner agree on. Make sure you are both on the same page.
Also for belayers, dont take someone off belay until you are certain they are ready to be taken off. If in doubt keep them on and ask again.
When using lockers, make sure you lock them but remember to back them off slightly so you can actually undo them again if weight them heavily.
In reply to: overlord wrote: don't rap over a sharp edge is there any easy solution to this? I could be missing something, but I can't think of any besides retreating from the last bolt if you see a sharp edge coming or downlclimbing past the edge if you want to finish the climb.
Pad the edge with jacket, hoodie, pack, fleece, duct tape etc. Or just avoid said sharp ledge.
I hope some more good common sense tips come out of this
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anson
Jun 14, 2005, 8:23 PM
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In reply to: Let's try a thought experiment.
Let's not. I suspect Larry has had the exact same experience as me: on a windy day, you hear "...AAAA..." coming from the general direction of your partner. What the heck did that mean? Is it even your partner you're hearing? I always ask for clarification if I didn't hear the *entire* command from the climber.
-aB
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onsight_endorphines
Jun 14, 2005, 8:31 PM
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ONNNN CAAAAAMMMPPPUSSSS...
8^)
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robdotcalm
Jun 14, 2005, 8:33 PM
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"On belay" and "off belay" are too similar. Several years ago, I climbed with two Brits who said "Safety" for "off belay". Nice idea, but it's never caught on here.
Occassionaly, I teach beginner's classes outdoors. In which case, I only climb routes I'm willing to solo.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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j_ung
Jun 14, 2005, 8:36 PM
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We, as a group, think alot about common sense climbing safety, which is good. But let's not forget common sense just-plain-outdoor safety:
Carry enough water. Drink it. Dont skimp.
First aid training is worth the time and money.
Tell someone where you're going and when you expect to be back.
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mjroche
Jun 14, 2005, 9:07 PM
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Tracy: glad you are okay. It really is scary as hell even when you are just watching this happen. Being on the sharp end has got to be a real terror.
Anyway, here are my thoughts on the subject. First, on sport routes, always make sure you discuss whether you are going to lower or rappel after the route. That way, there shouldn't be any confusion about being taken off when you plan to lower. Second, especially on multi-pitch routes, I bring those little walkie talkies. geeky, maybe, but a hell of a lot easier to hear than a shout through the wind. I know of other people who use whistles - e.g 3 sharp blasts signal off belay. But the walkie talkies are clearer, easier, and less intrusive on others around you.
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