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oudent
Jun 23, 2005, 3:50 AM
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Registered: Oct 16, 2004
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I've been climbing indoors for a year now, around a 5.8 - 5.9 level. Just tonight my climbing partner and I were invited to join a group for a trip out doors. The guys who invited climbed at about a 5.11 level, and supposedly more outdoors than indoors. The bottom line is that I just met my climbing partner a couple weeks ago, and have not developed a sense of trust yet, and I've never met the guys who invited us until tonight.
Now, I've been told numerous times to make sure you go with someone you know and trust to setup ropes for you, otherwise its just plain stupid. This makes sense to me, but I have been waiting for an opportunity to go outdoors since I started climbing a year ago, but I don't want to die or get hurt either.
I've never seen a top rope setup outdoors before, but have heard all types of stuff about proper rope angles, etc.
Is there a way I could get the basics of setting up a top rope in the next 2 days or so, at least enough to confirm everything is safe (at least safer) ?
Any tips? I've been told to read a few books, but by the time I can get the books it'll all be done.
Obviously if everyone says don't go, then I probably won't, but then I probably won't get a chance to go outdoors for many years, and that's not good either.
Please Advise,
Nick
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curt
Jun 23, 2005, 3:59 AM
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Go, and use some common sense--it will serve you well. Look at the anchors that the "more experienced" climbers set up--and then decide if they look safe. Are there multiple anchor points employed--or a single massive tree? Are there adamantly opposed carabiners used for the rope to run through? Do you see either the rope or webbing/cordalette running over any sharp edges? It's not rocket science; go and have fun.
Curt
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sava6e
Jun 23, 2005, 4:11 AM
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Registered: Apr 2, 2004
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SRENE
Strong
Redundant
Equalized
No Extensions
first of is what ever the guy anchoring to is it strong ie not some dead ass tree
2nd redundant is what your using for the anchor strong enough
3rd is it equalized no one piece is taking more weight than another
4th no extensions if one piece fails how will it effect the entire anchor-basically its not supposed to, some peopel use the sliding X which will cathc even if one of the biners or bolts fail however you will have an extending anchor, i use it tho when top roping.
have fun good luck
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landgolier
Jun 23, 2005, 4:15 AM
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I don't know where you are, but 90% of all top rope anchors involve either trees or bolts. If the anchor is redundant, the trees/bolts look strong enough (at least 6" and tied low to the ground for trees, of normal design and not rusty or otherwise crappy looking for bolts), the connections are all genuine climbing gear like tubular webbing, static line, or slings with real climbing biners holding it all together, there are no obvious points of abrasion or sharp edges on anchor material or climbing rope, the angle of the anchors is 60 degrees or less, and the rope is running through a biner and not something nylon, roll with it. There are always exceptions, and the lord sometimes protects fools, but few people get to be 5.11 climbers outside and still set crap TR anchors. 5.11 gym climbers are another story, of course.
If it's a gear anchor (stoppers and other trad pro), just take a look at it and see if you trust it. All pro except the tiniest nuts can easily take the forces of a TR anchor, and while setting pro is an art, figuring out if a wedge is going to free itself from a constriction if subjected to the expected directional forces ain't exactly rocket science. I advise you to read other threads or google about what constitutes a SRENE anchor (Strong, Redundant, Equalized, No Extension), but these principles are relatively simple.
Finally, if there are other climbers at the crag, ask them if they trust the anchor. It is common practice to share anchors/ropes at TR spots, but most people do check what it is they're riding before using a stranger's anchors, so just ask around. (Invariably when I don't check an anchor at my local TR spot, I get to the top and go, "umm, you know, I left my water bottle in the car, I think I'll just walk off from here and go get it.") Nobody's going to look down on you for being careful about your safety; anybody who does isn't a safe partner, period.
If getting outside is a goal for you and you think this is your only opportunity for years, ask around. Most groups don't mind taking new people out, especially if they can belay worth a crap. Where are you located? I'm willing to bet somebody near you will read this thread.
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abe_ascends
Jun 23, 2005, 4:30 AM
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Personally, I can't tell you what you should do. It depends on how much risk you are willing to take. However, if you have little basis for knowing what a good TR rig looks like, I think there's more to it than a little "common sense." It's definitely not rocket science, but it does take a bit of skill and experience to identify a good rig from a bad one. The suggestion to bring a trusted experienced climber or reading up on the subject sound like good ideas so you don't go into the scenario blind and is probably the preferred option. However, if you just can't wait, make this your mantra: SRENE
S- solid anchors
R- Redundant
E- equalized (all the anchors are equally weighted)
NE- No extension- if one anchor blows, the others will not be shock loaded.
Also, make sure the total angle of the anchors to the rope does not exceed about 60 degrees. If it does, the load on each individual anchor increases exponentially. If the load is about 150lbs and the total angle of the (2) anchors are at 20 degrees, the load on each anchor is approx. 50%. If the angle is at 120 degrees, the load on each anchor is approx. 100%. The point here is, make sure the anchors are relatively close together, angle-wise. Curt's points hold as well, so keep them in mind too.
Happy climbing, and keep safe. Remember, if you ever start to get a bad feeling, you can always choose not to climb. Cheers.
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slobmonster
Jun 23, 2005, 4:40 AM
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There is, of course, the pragmatic tack: wait till the largest fellow in the group gets climbs up, gets lowered, and if anything goes wrong, walk swiftly in the opposite direction (after first administering aid).
If, however, your new friends are truly experienced, thorough, and well-meaning, you might find that they can impart some good hard knowledge to help ripen your green-ness.
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oudent
Jun 23, 2005, 5:03 AM
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Registered: Oct 16, 2004
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Thanks for the replies...years was a slight exaggeration.
Soulclimbz, your reply is first in my mind :wink:
Also thanks for the advice on books earlier, I'll look into it, but probably not on time for this weekend...and maybe I'll just go climbing with you and the guys/gals this weekend if you are going.
So, I'm understanding the SRENE thing, that makes sense, and then some.
To everyone else, thanks for the help, feel free to post more if you'd like, the more the better right. You've been a lot of help...especially SRENE, it seems like common sense but there is a little more to it. Greatly appreciated! And fast too.
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kachoong
Jun 23, 2005, 5:07 AM
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In reply to: Go, and use some common sense--it will serve you well. Look at the anchors that the "more experienced" climbers set up--and then decide if they look safe. Are there multiple anchor points employed--or a single massive tree? Are there adamantly opposed carabiners used for the rope to run through? Do you see either the rope or webbing/cordalette running over any sharp edges? It's not rocket science; go and have fun. Curt
Most of you other guys will pretty much confuse the OP....not saying it's all wrong, but at this point in time you've gotta use your noggin' and common sense .... All that solid, redundant, equalised, non-extended anchor knowledge isn't going to sink in overnight.... it starts to makes sense after you've read it over twenty times and practised for weeks....
this sugegstion is kinda good though....
In reply to: There is, of course, the pragmatic tack: wait till the largest fellow in the group gets climbs up, gets lowered, and if anything goes wrong, walk swiftly in the opposite direction (after first administering aid). |
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oudent
Jun 23, 2005, 5:20 AM
Post #9 of 19
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Registered: Oct 16, 2004
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I'm getting picture help right now, and with my educational background, I learn these things quick...such as the Slider X doodad...more than common sense required...but it works for me.
Also SRENE makes sense (though I am getting it explained in greater detail by someone)...sorry, I won't be able to write it all here.
Anyways, feel free to give advanced advice, but explain a little too.
Again thanks for the advice, everything helps.
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brat_info
Jun 23, 2005, 12:06 PM
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Registered: Jun 20, 2005
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Easy, go the first night to check it out, take a pic of their setup, post it here, we'll tell you if you should go back! :D
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sync
Jun 23, 2005, 12:37 PM
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In reply to: Easy, go the first night to check it out, take a pic of their setup, post it here, we'll tell you if you should go back! :D
Just be careful... you might get harangued for posting a picture of someone else's top rope setup. ;)
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flipnfall
Jun 23, 2005, 1:07 PM
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If I can, I check out a person top-rope anchor before asking if I can climb with them. If they have a crappy anchor, I usually invite them to climb my line and get to know them before making any comments. I've asked to climb with people who were climbing dangerously and found that if I'm really extra nice, they take advice. One guy had loosening knots so I said, "Can I apologize for something?"
The guy said, "What? Huh?"
"I know how much it sucks to have other climbers critique your set up, but I noticed that you may have had a knot that's loose. Is it OK if I look at it?"
"Are you serious? Sure. Thanks for letting me know!" he said.
He was obviously a new climber and when he saw that I was genuinely concerned about him, he let me help him set up his anchor and show him a few things. He asked a lot of questions and then climbed with me all day. I had no problem climbing with him the rest of the day because he was genuinely interested in climbing safely.
GT
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bill413
Jun 23, 2005, 1:28 PM
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Registered: Oct 19, 2004
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I'd suggest being upfront with them about not having set up a top rope before, and have them show you how they are doing it & explain it. If they can't ... that's a bit suspect. If you're comfortable with their explanations (especially in light of the advice given here....redundancy!!!) go ahead & climb.
Take lots of opportunities to see how different people set up their anchors...always make your own judgement about how safe they seem.
Enjoy.
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villageidiot
Jun 23, 2005, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: Also, make sure the total angle of the anchors to the rope does not exceed about 60 degrees. If it does, the load on each individual anchor increases exponentially.
I think somebody was sleeping in their physics or mechanics class.
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crimpandgo
Jun 23, 2005, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Go, and use some common sense--it will serve you well. Look at the anchors that the "more experienced" climbers set up--and then decide if they look safe. Are there multiple anchor points employed--or a single massive tree? Are there adamantly opposed carabiners used for the rope to run through? Do you see either the rope or webbing/cordalette running over any sharp edges? It's not rocket science; go and have fun. Curt Listen to this man!! Most of you other guys will pretty much confuse the OP....not saying it's all wrong, but at this point in time you've gotta use your noggin' and common sense .... All that solid, redundant, equalised, non-extended anchor knowledge isn't going to sink in overnight.... it starts to makes sense after you've read it over twenty times and practised for weeks.... this sugegstion is kinda good though.... In reply to: There is, of course, the pragmatic tack: wait till the largest fellow in the group gets climbs up, gets lowered, and if anything goes wrong, walk swiftly in the opposite direction (after first administering aid). ....after inspecting the achors myself, that's what I'd be doing.... :wink:
What did you mean by this?? I am confused... :oops: :lol:
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azrockclimber
Jun 23, 2005, 5:37 PM
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ask questions..pay attention and use common sense....I think you should go.
did I mention ASK QUESTIONS if you are unsure.
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azrockclimber
Jun 23, 2005, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: I'd suggest being upfront with them about not having set up a top rope before, and have them show you how they are doing it & explain it. If they can't ... that's a bit suspect. If you're comfortable with their explanations (especially in light of the advice given here....redundancy!!!) go ahead & climb. Take lots of opportunities to see how different people set up their anchors...always make your own judgement about how safe they seem. Enjoy.
this is good advice too...be upfront about your concerns and ask them to go over it with you and explain their system.
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brat_info
Jun 23, 2005, 11:30 PM
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Sorry for my aussie humour, I was joking about taking a pic of their setup!
I have never climbed on a setup that I hadn't checked, even a trusted climbing partner, the same as you check each others buckles/tie in. It's not a matter of trust, it's called being safety conscious.
I'm even reluctant to second for the same reason. The only thing with seconding is that a leader setting a anchor tends to be very focused, as opposed to T/R when I've seen a number of people involved and distractions can occur.
If you haven't enough knowledge to be able to recognise good/bad then do a course and learn.
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