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insertusernamehere
Jul 1, 2005, 8:47 PM
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As the topic denotes above I need help to start climbing outside. I have been a member of my climbing gym since August. I have been itching to get outside because despite the lack of realism in the gym I love it, and I want more than anything to go outside. But since I am a minor and am going to live under my parent's roof for another 4 years, I am prohibitted from going outside which sucks. So basically I need help convincing my father so I can go outdoor climbing. If any of you can give me any advice in doing so it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
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musicman
Jul 1, 2005, 8:58 PM
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total of at least 5 visits to the ER, a few times i've been stitched up by my dad (he's a doctor) at my home, and had tons of other s happen where i probabaly should've gone to the ER.
guess how many have happened climbing?.....none!!
here's another story, friend of mine told me this. He's been climbing for 15 years, never had a visit to the ER, after mountain biking he's been twice in 6 months.
my uncle told my parents (he climbed back in the 70's) that climbing was the best thing someone in high school could be doing. basically physically and mentally.
just make sure to go with someone experienced, have them even meet your dad if that helps, my parents love meeting who i go with. they'll like it more if they're older generally too. just do tons of little things, and don't push them too much or they'll get so fed up with you they'll probably shoot your or something.
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austinclmbr
Jul 1, 2005, 9:10 PM
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What the hell do you mean "prohibited from going outside"? So, your dad will drop you off at the gym for some petofile to hit on but won't let you go outside to play?
That's the freakin problem with American society, parents theese days are so eager to pawn off thier kids to video games, MTV, and now the climbing gym? What ever happend to parental support? Parents re-enforcing kids desire for attention through recreational activities!!! I guess it is better to drop em off for a few hours so they can learn how to shoot a gun unsupervised until they decide they don't like the grades thier teacher is given em.
Incredible!!! You tell your dad to give me a call (PM me and I will give you my #) I have a four year old who loves to do anything outside...Fishing, hunting, camping, climbing...a girl with more confidence and common sense than most kids twice her age. This is not by accident.
Seriously, my best advice is to use the socratical method on him...do nothing but ask questions on his logic. Why is outside different than the gym? What is it about outside that he is concerned about ? What can you do to ease his mind? Is there some sort of series of actions that would convince him to change his mind? etc etc.
Can you tell I am passionate about this topic??
-Jason
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furbucket
Jul 1, 2005, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: He's been climbing for 15 years, never had a visit to the ER, after mountain biking he's been twice in 6 months.
I've met many mountain bikers turned climbers. Their reasoning: after breaking their wrists, collar bone, leg, shoulder, etc. for the umpteenth bagillion time they thought they'd take up a relatively safe sport.
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noman668
Jul 1, 2005, 11:45 PM
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Lifetime major injury scorcard:
Skateboarding: a broken wrist, a concussion, a broken ankle and one sprained ankle (not to mention all the pain...)
Snowboarding: torn ankle, broken wrist, concussion, lots of bruises.
Biking (road): hit by a car (broken collarbone)
Biking (mountain): nothing major yet...(miraculously, cuz I've been over the bars a hundred times and gone over a very steep switchback once...)
Driving: two major accidents, one head-on resulting in a broken hand/thumb+torn ligaments and whiplash so bad I was in bed for three days (woulda been dead if an SUV instead of a porsche 914 hit me)
Climbing: aside from a few scraped knees/elbows, one trip to the doctor for a tear in my left ring finger tendon.
Hey Mom&Dad: Let 'em do it...it's not as bad as you think.
Everyone I meet thinks climbing is just crazy...yet they think nothing of doing 85 on the 405 while less than a car length off someone's bumper.
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vegastradguy
Jul 2, 2005, 1:08 AM
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instead of spouting off advice, i'll start by asking this:
what exactly is your fathers objection to you climbing outdoors? starting there will give a better perspective on how to approach the problem with a useful solution.
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insertusernamehere
Jul 2, 2005, 2:28 AM
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I am not exactly positive what makes him so adamant about not letting me climb outdoors, but basically he thinks that it is too dangerous. Which doesn't surprise me considering that he thinks almost everything is too dangerous, although climbing is in his top 3. He encourages me to be active, which I do on my own, but he wants me to be safe. Which is why I can't spar in kickboxing, go outdoor rock climbing, or play on the football team. Enough of me complaining though. To answer the question above he thinks it is horribly dangerous and won't let me near all of the wonderful desert climbing around me. :cry:
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capcom1701
Jul 2, 2005, 3:23 AM
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you live in the desert. You could be killed by any number of things in your sleep, or by something that crawled into your shoes. Climbing outdoors isn't more dangerous than any number of activities you could take part in, but it is more exacting and much more unforgiving.
I would imagine that if you did some research you could prove that:
more people get killed golfing in Florida, than get killed climbing in California. (Folks just don't respect lighting...)
more people probably get seriously injured in Tucson hiking/driving through riverbeds than get injured climbing in Tucson. (There's actually a price list of what they charge to get pull people out of the riverbeds because so many people get stranded down there during mountain rainstorms.)
Maybe try getting your dad involved in the sport?
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vegastradguy
Jul 2, 2005, 5:09 AM
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In reply to: I am not exactly positive what makes him so adamant about not letting me climb outdoors, but basically he thinks that it is too dangerous. Which doesn't surprise me considering that he thinks almost everything is too dangerous, although climbing is in his top 3. He encourages me to be active, which I do on my own, but he wants me to be safe. Which is why I can't spar in kickboxing, go outdoor rock climbing, or play on the football team. Enough of me complaining though. To answer the question above he thinks it is horribly dangerous and won't let me near all of the wonderful desert climbing around me. :cry:
sounds like he has a deep fear of you getting injured in some way...
the only advice i can give you is for you to find a local guide in your area and ask him to meet with your father to explain how strong the gear used in the sport is and then ask your dad if you can go with the guide outside so that you can be safe and learn new things.
(although, if he wont let you spar in kickboxing or play football....you may be in a tight spot)
also, feel free to have your father pm me questions if he has any, i'd be more than happy to answer them if i can be of help.
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prashanticlimber
Jul 2, 2005, 5:27 AM
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insertusernamehere,
I know exactly how you feel 'bout not bein allowed to climb the mountains outdoors!!!:( My damned mother won't let me out yet either, :? can only climb in the gyms. I've asked her why, begged her, etc. etc. but no luck. she thinks its not safe.
oh well at least I can do some form of climbing...but anyways, I feel the pain too man
Sarah
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areuinclimber
Jul 2, 2005, 5:30 AM
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maybe he should quit being "safe" and live a little. life itself is not safe, capitalize on it. a "safe" life is a boring one. besides you are probably compatent enough to be safe outside. if not... then you will fortify his beliefs. just go out and dont tell him. hows he gonna know? you cant do everything you want by obeying the rules all the time (no...dont go rob a bank...yet)
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march
Jul 2, 2005, 5:48 AM
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Geez Austinclimber... We can tell you're passionate, but chill out a bit. :lol:
insertusernamehere - Don't have Austinclimber call your dad. Do (like Austinclimber said) talk to him. Don't interrogate him, but try to find out what specifically his concerns are - not just that it's dangerous. What aspects about outdoor climbing does he feel are not safe? The equipment? (He didn't see 'Cliffhanger' did he!?), techniques? Your or other people's skills? etc... Maybe he has a mistaken understand of what outdoor climbing is like or the different aspects of it. I know many people when finding out I climb, they instantly think of the guys that they see on TV freesoloing and think I'm nuts... until I explain.
Educate yourself as much as much as possible so you can help to educate him and alleviate some of his fears. This isn't so you can point out all the other things that are more dangerous than climbing, but so that you can show that you have a real concern for safety, you can be responsible for yourself and that you're not going to be reckless on the rock or climb with anyone who is. There are some great books that will help with this - the kind you read - not just look at the photos.
Also be willing to compromise. I'm assuming you're a teenager - many teens only want their way and don't communicate (it's a two-way thing) well with parents. Learning to discuss things and give-and-take is a valuable skill to develop. Ask if you would be able to take an outdoor climbing class with an institution (with a proven safety record of course) or hire a guide to take you. You can even ask for this as a birthday/ christmas gift or be willing to do something to pay for it on your own. If not now, ask if there is a certain age when he would be willing to let you do this - maybe he just feels you are still too young.
If the answer is still no - don't throw a fit or get angry. You can show your maturity and responsibility by honoring and respecting his wishes (which will only help your case). In the meantime keep improving your skills in the gym, meet people to mentor you, and learn as much as you can so when the time comes you will be able to make a smooth, easy, and safe transition to real rock.
Remember you are his child - he loves you and wants to keep you safe. No, the world is not completely safe, but he wants to keep you safe in the areas he can control (climbing, football). It may not be what you wish, but if you try to put yourself in his shoes it may help you understand a bit.
I know that's a lot of stuff, but I hope it helps. If there's anything else I can help with feel free to PM or e-mail me. Best of luck.
-Marc
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annak
Jul 2, 2005, 6:15 AM
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In reply to: Which is why I can't spar in kickboxing, go outdoor rock climbing, or play on the football team.
Wow, that's pretty bad. My parents were like that. I was not able to find my way around (although my requirements were much more modest), just secured my independence by going into a college in another city. Life is long, you'll have your time, be patient and think long-term.
Meanwhile, I would recommend to keep returning to the issue ad nauseum, discussing it from different points of view, supporting your arguments by reliable data (e.g., accident statistics), and bringing up to their attention the alternatives of a typical behavior of idle teenagers (e.g., drugs, sex, dangerous criminal activities, etc). Show your determination and your maturity, e.g., by demonstrating that your are aware of pertinent risks, but are able to exersice good judgement and make right choices.
Good luck!
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andrewbanandrew
Jul 2, 2005, 9:53 AM
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In reply to: insertusernamehere, I know exactly how you feel 'bout not bein allowed to climb the mountains outdoors!!!:( My damned mother won't let me out yet either, :? can only climb in the gyms. I've asked her why, begged her, etc. etc. but no luck. she thinks its not safe. oh well at least I can do some form of climbing...but anyways, I feel the pain too man Sarah
if you're in Vancouver you can hop the bus to Squamish for $10 or so...
...not that I strongly encourage temporarily running away from home, but there's world class bouldering to be had...
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rickrock77
Jul 2, 2005, 1:47 PM
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Gee with all the good answers given, I am suprised no one actually said the simplest thing...
Take the dad climbing to the gym a few times, and he will get into it then want to take you outside.
But dont tell him that, just say you want him to come along, and maybe join up to the gym, for some father son, quality time..
Hey, if there is one thing guys like us love, its using muscle, and climbing is the best thing for that!
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austinclmbr
Jul 2, 2005, 4:20 PM
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....And I didn't think this topic would get much response! I am glad to see you are getting good advice. I agree with most of what people are saying. But I think what is truly important is spending time with your dad. Taking him to the gym is the best idea, and common sense tells me that if your not allowed to do ANYTHING, your going to go ape-shit when you get to college, I am surprised he doesn't see that.
Anyway being a parent myself (even if I do disagree with your dads parenting style) I do think you should repect his wishes. If you can't convince him, stick with the gym until you get out of the house.....then show him a pic of you on top of El Cap and say "I just wish I would've learned how to do it safely when I was younger...I almost died up there" That'll get his blood goin!! LOL
-Jason
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hosebeats
Jul 2, 2005, 5:07 PM
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Parents who are overly protective and limit their children's scope of adventure and experiences is one of my greatest pet peeves. I know too many people I went to high school with that just went batshit crazy once they got to college. It's a shame that they were never taught some form of personal responsibility. On the other hand I was raised with too few restrictions. I don't think that either forms of parenting really work. Honestly I believe that both are a form of uninvolved parenting. On the one hand you have a parent who sets too few limits and hopes you make the right decisions and then you have the parent who sets too many restrictions and never allows you to make the right decision. There are reasons for both. In my case my mother raised myself and my sister single handedly while taking in my aging grandmother and working as a 2nd grade teacher. A tough job for anyone and I believe she did the absolute best she could. My girlfriends mother on the other hand is a close minded control freak. All three of her girls were raised in a completely controlled environment. Now that they are grown and gone all three of them had a "crazy" period. Kids and teenagers have to learn responsibility for their actions.
My mom was uninvolved just because she worked damned hard to keep us clothed and fed. My girlfriends mom was involved because she didn't care what her kids wanted. She didn't listen and didn't try to learn about what her kids wanted. Both suck. Good luck with your dad.
"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."
-Helen Keller
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insertusernamehere
Jul 3, 2005, 4:19 AM
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Wow, I am so glad that everyone was so helpful I really do apprectiate all the advice that everyone gave me and I think that it will be a great help, but of course that doesn't mean you still can't post :D If I could take my father to the gym I would in a heartbeat, the only problem is he is a very large man and he is afraid of heights.(and probably won't be able to overcome it...bad experience) I think I am going to use a little of everyone's advice and hopefully it will work if not I can wait until I turn 18... I hope.Thank you so much ...again
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redzit
Jul 3, 2005, 5:13 AM
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K, few things, my two cents.
Getting you dad involved is a GREAT idea. I do not, and I have yet to meet a climber, who considers climbing an "extreme sport" because of the degree of safety. it's either a bandage or a stretcher, so climbers tend to be careful. once your dad starts to become part of the climbing community, his views MAY begin to sway this way as well... be warned though, allow him to come to such a conclusion, don't stuff it in his head.
The second thing you can do is start doing some serious research into climbing gear and safety techniques and technology. a great place to start is this site, as well as the books "Freedom of The Hills" (the single most important book i own) and books such as "Anchors" and "More Anchors" by John Long. Read accident reports, and see what went wrong is a great way to learn from other peoples experiances as well. not onlly is this information VITAL to climbing, it will help edge your dad to letting you climb
Finally, one more tip. Your dad may have a weekness, as some people do, for shiny new climbing gear... especialy once he gets into the sport. if he does that, then your set, cause ya can't climb without gear!
Good luck dude. I started climbing when i was 14, and it was Awesome outside
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chauch
Jul 3, 2005, 5:20 AM
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the ship in a safe harbor is indeed safe, but that is not for what the vessel was built.
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far_east_climber
Jul 3, 2005, 5:48 AM
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In reply to: a few times i've been stitched up by my dad (he's a doctor) at my home
This sounds like a wonderful, after dinner activity to do with your family. I'll be sure to try this.
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thedejongs
Jul 3, 2005, 12:47 PM
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You say your dad is a big man and scared of heights. Even more reason to take him to the gym. I've seen huge men climbing at our YMCA wall-- and they enjoy it. However, don't start him out on the wall. Use him as your belay slave. This does a couple of things-- exposes him favorably to climbing, shows him your skill and commitment level, and gives him a chance (don't push) to participate in climbing if he develops any wish to do so. Most importantly, this gives you and your dad positive time together-- at your age, that may not seem too important. However, I'm 36 and just finished a hike with my 70 yo dad over Memorial Day-- he talked all the way up the mountain and all the way down. I wish I'd known half of what he told me then when I was half my age-- however, I was too absorbed in myself back then to have listened. Give your dad a chance and enjoy time with him (while he's belaying you to boot). I assume he is protective of you because he loves you. If this is true, your time with him and your exposition of your skills should convince him (and this may take a while) to loosen up the reins a bit. When he gets to that point (again, don't push him), talk him into hiring an AMGA or AAI guide and going with you (not necessarily to climb) when you head out. If you really do live near Vegas, give Jason Martin at American Alpine Inst. a call-- he's incredible with NOOBs and could really instill some confidence in your dad, too.
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rickrock77
Jul 3, 2005, 1:59 PM
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I aggree with dejong.
Start off by getting him to comer and belay you, and just get him into the climbing scene.
I dont think it will take himlong to respect you enough, to suggest it to you himself. But dont look like you are trying to convince him, you probably know already he has to convince himself.
But think about, if he did the belaying thing, could he really dislike you doing for say, 3 months of belaying? Surely after all that time he would start to enjoy seeing you do it, and want you to go further?
Good luck.. and remember, paitence is the key.
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freeskicolorado
Jul 3, 2005, 3:12 PM
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I think you've gotten a lot of good responses already, but here's my 0.02.
1) If you could get your dad into climbing by taking him to the gym and having him belay and such, great. Or, even just ask him to come watch you and your partner at the gym, and explain to him how toprope climbing outdoors is essentially the same thing as climbing indoors.
2) Seeing if he would let you go with a guide is also a good idea. And if he does, ask him to come with you so he can see what's going on. My mom is not overly protective by any means, but she is worried for my safety by some of the things I do. She came and watched me climb (with top belay) a 160' crack climb and do a two rope rappel down, and when I got to the bottom, she told me that she was not at all concerned about watching me climb that, and that it looked perfectly safe to her. Of course, I'm 20 and can climb regardless... but it's still nice to have the parental stamp of approval too.
3) Learn as much as you can so you can talk that much more intelligently about outdoor climbing. Perhaps take him to a climbing store, show him the gear, explain how it's used, show him the strength ratings and give him an idea of how kN convert to lbs. (THis COULD potentially backfire, as he might possibly not agree that the gear looks strong enough... but I think that he should be informed about what outdoor climbing is all about.) Also remember to be as mature as possible when dealing with this, as any immaturity will, in your dad's eyes, prove to him that you should not be allowed to climb outdoors.
Good luck bro.
Jeff
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