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thorne
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Aug 16, 2005, 11:55 AM
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In reply to: Various sport routes at the New have been climbed on natural gear only, including Apollo Reed, 13a. The Gumby has undoubtedly been done without using the bolts--probably it's been soloed more than a few times.
I think he was asking if about routes that were initially climbed trad and then retrobolted.
In reply to: At any rate, contrary to Thorne's assertion, on most sport routes at the New you'd probably be safer placing your own gear
Having a "bail-me-out" bolt close by, while leading trad, somehow reduces safety? No kidding?
Let me guess. You don't lead trad.
How many times have bolts failed at the New? How many injuries have resulted?
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unabonger
Aug 16, 2005, 9:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Let me guess. You don't lead trad.
Not since last summer have I led a crack, that's true. I guess I find crack climbing a bit stale. But almost twenty years ago when I first went to the New is about the same time some of these bolts were installed. I still did cracks back then, of course.
In reply to: How many times have bolts failed at the New? How many injuries have resulted?
I don't know. I don't care. I do care what the condition of the bolts on these routes are. I've removed several, and seen bolts that Eric H and also crews that the Red have pulled. It has been enough to convince me there is a real problem, Thorne. If that is your real name.
Anway, I've been part of the problem for while now, I've logged my share of time on those bolts, and if thorne has also occupied any of these routes maybe he'll pitch in and buy some stainless bolts and help me out.
UB
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unabonger
Aug 16, 2005, 9:25 PM
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In reply to: Having a "bail-me-out" bolt close by, while leading trad, somehow reduces safety?
I guess you only recognize hyperbole when you use it yourself? Anyway dummy, the point is that if you take a high fall factor fall, say before clipping the 3rd or 4th bolt on some of those routes, you are better off having a solid piece of gear rather than some of the existing corroded bolts. I guess that was too subtle for you?
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thorne
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Aug 17, 2005, 12:08 PM
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unabonger
Aug 17, 2005, 3:41 PM
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Ok thorne, we'll set aside the jibes, I'll forget you pulled the silly "you don't lead trad" card, you forget I callously insulted your given name, ok? I'll get real here instead of just poking you with a stick, and maybe you can step down from the socratic soapbox. Your name is real but I still don't know where you really stand so help me out.
You're right, it was in fact 19 years ago when the first real wave of sport routes went in. And note first ascentionist Eric Hörst has felt a need to replace old bolts on his routes from that era. I'm using my judgement based on the accumulated observations of Eric, Terry (RRG anchor replacment expert, who visited the New), Rick Thompson, and myself, among others.
You're also right that not all the bolts are unsafe, and I don't mean or want to argue that they are. I believe a more relevent question is: How many bolts and anchors are questionable, and my answer is: Many. And many of them are on the most popular routes. We'll be well served by citing specific examples. For example, if you examine the bolts on Gumby-that was the subject of the op, wasn't it?-I think you'll agree that falling on your own gear would be preferable to falling on the first three or four bolts. After that the bolts gets some sun and aren't in a water stain.
The problem is that most bolts at the New are not in the sun. They are in water streaks, they aren't stainless steel, and they rust. Check routes at the Hole, Butchers, White Wall, and you'll see a hundred completely rusted bolts (and sometimes hangers). Some bolts at the Hole and many at Summersville have been replaced.
Do you think these rusted bolts are weak? If so, do you think should they be upgraded to stainless, camoflaged anchors and bolts? I imagine some climbers are so staunchly anti-bolting that they don't want any maintanence done on such routes out of jihadist principle. I can sympathize with such strong adherence to values. The dangling tat in the Hole and Coliseum should be a disgrace to any climber, whatever rock faith they adhere to.
I can also imagine a fear that such maintanance activity will encourage further bolting beyond replacement, and such a possibility (which must be admitted by proponents) makes traditionalists wary.
Of course politically such a no-maintenance policy is a difficult position. Most climbers believe anchor maintenance is a necessary activity. Land managers see and can't stop the numbers of people visiting the cliffs. If you were a land manager watching dozens of people wailing away on the fifth bolt of Sancho, all weekend long, would you grant a permit for a select list of 25 people licensed to update anchors and bolts? At the New, they have done so, for many good reasons. It's a done deal. The 1000's of sport routes there are part of the economy and community, for better or worse.
By the way, thorne, there are a bunch of beautiful cracks at Butcher's. I have only encountered about one party a year climbing with gear. I've almost been inspired to haul my rack out there. Almost.
UB
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noell
Aug 17, 2005, 4:01 PM
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Wow. You know what's really wierd, is when you sorta know both parties involved, and you're like - whoa! (Well, I know one of you and know the other through common friends.) Whoa - Did he just say all that?
Come on guys, we're all in it for the good of the New. We all have the same goals - to have fun, climb hard, keep everyone safe.
:P smile for me and play nice?
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leaverbiner
Aug 17, 2005, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: Wow. You know what's really wierd, is when you sorta know both parties involved, and you're like - whoa! (Well, I know one of you and know the other through common friends.) Whoa - Did he just say all that? Come on guys, we're all in it for the good of the New. We all have the same goals - to have fun, climb hard, keep everyone safe. :P smile for me and play nice?
I had the same reaction Noell . . . too funny . . .
Also - to respond to the original post - a lot of routes at the New can be done on gear, particularly those at Summersville. I ahve done some of them, just to practice gear placements, but even the few that I have done, the placements are sparse and not all are reliable. My leads were done on routes that I felt I could solo (She Got the Bosch, Scoot Your Muffin, Year ofthe Psycho Bitch). On Flight of the Gumby, I would highly doubt there are any placements once you pull around to the right of the arete, so if you fell at anypoint thereafter you would be facing a HUGE swinging fall.
I have seen others doing a lot of the routes down there on gear including watching Ben Montgomery do Apollo Reed. To each their own.
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j_ung
Aug 17, 2005, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: Be careful about declaring your "staunch NC trad ethic". NC has a number of areas with sport routes - Moores, Sauratown, Pilot, Stone (not really :wink: ), Crowder, Rumbling, Hawksbill, Table Rock and Cedar, to name a few. There's more than a lifetime's worth of stellar trad lines in this part of the country. You've got plenty of trad lines to send before getting worked up about style ethics. The bolt wars were so 90s.
Trophy!
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thorne
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Aug 17, 2005, 4:40 PM
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Sorry about that, folks.
Sometimes my bullshit detector has a hair trigger. :wink:
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thorne
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Aug 17, 2005, 4:49 PM
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Hey Una,
Tell me more about "the first real wave of sport routes" back in '86.
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sandstonejunkie
Aug 17, 2005, 4:55 PM
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thorne, no need to apologize for the hair trigger, I say the less bs the better. this thread is an excellent example ... op swaggers about his bold NC ethics, basically spews that it's all better here in NC because we're bad asses, but later admits
In reply to: I'm just a wannabe hardman trying to grow a bigger pair with every climb. These particular climbs would offer the easy chance to push my trad limits over some terrain with gear that may not be completely straightforward...but if I needed to cop out...I'd have bolts there to do so
the op clearly doesn't understand/live the NC ethic. That is the kind of bs your trigger is designed for, fire away.
btw, I love sport climbing and am not ashamed to admit it
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joshy8200
Aug 17, 2005, 5:43 PM
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The BS and spewage didn't begin until people started telling me to go climb the other regular trad routes at the New and get off my high horse about the ethics of bolting. I (maybe not so) clearly stated that I DON'T REALLY GIVE A RATS ASS (IDRGARA) about the ethics of bolting...BUT this past weekend I did notice on almost every route that I climbed very good gear placements at many of the bolts that I clipped. Now that I know that I can expect this I won't be asking for any more beta about it.
As for the the post saying that I don't know anything about NC Ethic...well I now understand the error of my asking about whether these routes had been done clean on the internet and implied declaration that NC Ethic is the only way to live and climb (for which I immediately corrected myself and apologized).
So if being a little excited and curious over whether a clip-up has been or can be done clean is against the 'hardman code of ethics' I maybe kidding myself more than I think.
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sandstonejunkie
Aug 17, 2005, 6:26 PM
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Your very first post to begin the thread : In reply to: Being of the staunch NC ethic of not bolting where gear can be placed I was very annoyed many times to find places on almost EVERY route that I did this weekend that could have had a gear placement at the BOLT.
In reply to: So if being a little excited and curious over whether a clip-up has been or can be done clean is against the 'hardman code of ethics' I maybe kidding myself more than I think. |
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nowinowski
Aug 17, 2005, 6:44 PM
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Idol point arete is an awesome continous crack. Any takers I'd love someone to work it on gear with?
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dingus
Aug 17, 2005, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: I now understand the error of my asking about whether these routes had been done clean on the internet and implied declaration that NC Ethic is the only way to live and climb (for which I immediately corrected myself and apologized).
So you're good to go now Bro. Live and learn and all that. Now go climb those cracks with trad gear and enjoy!
DMT
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unabonger
Aug 17, 2005, 9:44 PM
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In reply to: Wow. You know what's really wierd, is when you sorta know both parties involved, and you're like - whoa! (Well, I know one of you and know the other through common friends.) Whoa - Did he just say all that? Come on guys, we're all in it for the good of the New. We all have the same goals - to have fun, climb hard, keep everyone safe. :P smile for me and play nice?
Hey Noell, of course you're right and I hope my post above reflects a sincere desire to hijack this thread and actually talk about the crap bolts and see if people want to help out.
Oh, and Thorne and I (if you're talkiing about us) have probably engaged in flame wars since my second post or so on this site. I'm sure when we meet in person we'll probably have to beat each other senseless just to save face. Or at least challenge each other to an old fashioned dixieland duel of honor. It'll be fun as hell in a "Jackass" sort of way. Maybe we could "solo to the death" or something.
Actually I don't think either of us takes this personally, its all in good fun.
UB
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sandstonejunkie
Aug 17, 2005, 10:05 PM
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hmmm, Solo to the Death eh?
If thorne is up to it I could arrange a meeting :wink:
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unabonger
Aug 17, 2005, 10:12 PM
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In reply to: hmmm, Solo to the Death eh? If thorne is up to it I could arrange a meeting :wink:
Sounds good. Of course, TJ, as my now appointed second in the duel, it is your duty to act in my stead if for some reason I can't solo on the chosen date and time. For example, I feel a severely pulled finger coming on. Ouch. Looks like you're up.
UB
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caughtinside
Aug 17, 2005, 10:14 PM
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To the death? No, to the Pain!
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sandstonejunkie
Aug 17, 2005, 11:27 PM
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thorne, unabonger, shall we convene at Summersville Lake?
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thorne
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Aug 18, 2005, 12:16 PM
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How about we see who will take the biggest whipper on those scaaaarrry old bolts up there. After all, this was what this flamefest was all about.
BTW,
There were no sport routes put up twenty years ago, as you stated. According to Thompson's first guide, there weren't any put up 19 years ago. If you're gonna spray, get your facts straight.
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naw
Aug 18, 2005, 1:29 PM
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My 230lb buddy took a 25 footer on gumby a couple months ago, seventh or eigth bolt I believe...it held up fine. I also did gumby maybe a month ago myself. Right after the move to the right of the arete (I believe it's after the sixth bolt) I was playing around with trying to climb back to the left to try a sequence over there and I jumped off a few feet above the bolt, it held up fine also. I weigh about 175 or so. The worst bolts I've seen while clipping gumby are the bolts down low. The first or second one is a rusty spinner, if I remember correctly (I could be mixing it up with another route at butchers), and the second bolt is so awkwardly placed that I always skip it because it's pumpier for me to attempt to a weird backstep and try to clip it than to just move on. I'm sure there are plenty of people, myself included, that would be happy to donate a little extra cash to replace some of the bolts on gumby and the other really popular routes in that area. I did rico a couple months ago and I don't remember any really bad bolts there. If I lived closer I'd be happy to help with the replacement but unfortunately I can only get up a couple weekends a month at most. Thanks to the guys who are trying to work to make it safer for the rest of us. Anyway, back to the big balls competition.
nate
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norskagent
Aug 18, 2005, 1:46 PM
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In reply to: I love NC climbing, but have to say that some of the hardcore trad ethic there is a bit counter-productive and dangerous. Take Moore's Wall. The 4th class descent from Hopscotch (5.3) is more dangerous than the climb. Several well meaning individuals have placed rappel anchors only to have them chopped because of the "Trad ethic." So, noob climber sees a 5.3 route--score! Only to have an epic near death experience on the down climb (stay away from the light!). ... do the folks who climb the 5.6 next door still need to risk death to get down?
You can easily walk off all Sentinel / scrambled eggs / hopscotch area routes, and be back at the base in less than 15 min.
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unabonger
Aug 20, 2005, 7:46 PM
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I just stumbled across this from Eric's Bubba City website. Note the mention of the broken pin:
In reply to: Updates Fixed anchors & your safety 6/5/04 Fixed anchors, such as bolts, pitons, cold shuts and other "top anchors", are ubiquitous at the New River Gorge. Wet Virginia's (sic) perpetually damp climate and the hundreds of old carbon-steel bolts (and pitons), together present some long-term safety concerns. At least one rusty piton has broken (at the Bridge Buttress) resulting in a ground fall and injury. Therefore, there's a growing effort among local climbers to replace the worst of the rusting bolts, pitons and top anchors. Bubba City is the first area to see a widespread upgrade to stainless steel anchors; however, anchor-replacement efforts can finally expand to other areas given the NPS' new Climbing Management Plan (which allows for use of power drills to replace bolts). Still, there remains a large variance in the quality of fixed anchors in the New River Gorge due to a number of variables including: manner of placement, weathering, metal fatigue from falls, the quality of the metal used, and other factors. |
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