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clausti
Aug 30, 2005, 4:09 AM
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or, "why do people sandbag at climbing comps."
In this instance I am using the term "sandbag" to indicate that a person has entered a lower division at the competition than they should have. For example, the competitions that I have been in generally run Beginner, v0-v2, intermediate v3-v5, advanced, v6-v8, open v8-vsick. ish. we'll use those designations for the point of the discussion.
If you can regularly go out on a trip and bag a couple of v6's, I think I would consider that hard enough that you ought to be entering the "advanced" division, if the catagories are divided as listed above.
However, you are usually allowed one or two problems on your scorecard that are in the division above that which you entered before they bump you up. so if you can only do a "couple" of v6's, maybe you still belong in intermediate becuase that is *most* of what would appear on your score card?
I am curious to know what people's opinions are on this. If you were reasonably certain you could do several problems in the advanced catagory, would you enter it? or would you wait until you felt you could do MOSTLY problems from the advanced catagory before you entered it? What is your standard practice?
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curt
Aug 30, 2005, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: or, "why do people sandbag at climbing comps." In this instance I am using the term "sandbag" to indicate that a person has entered a lower division at the competition than they should have. For example, the competitions that I have been in generally run Beginner, v0-v2, intermediate v3-v5, advanced, v6-v8, open v8-vsick. ish. we'll use those designations for the point of the discussion. If you can regularly go out on a trip and bag a couple of v6's, I think I would consider that hard enough that you ought to be entering the "advanced" division, if the catagories are divided as listed above. However, you are usually allowed one or two problems on your scorecard that are in the division above that which you entered before they bump you up. so if you can only do a "couple" of v6's, maybe you still belong in intermediate becuase that is *most* of what would appear on your score card? I am curious to know what people's opinions are on this. If you were reasonably certain you could do several problems in the advanced catagory, would you enter it? or would you wait until you felt you could do MOSTLY problems from the advanced catagory before you entered it? What is your standard practice?
If there's an "old farts" division available, I'm in it. I earned the right by climbing this long and not being dead.
Curt
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caughtinside
Aug 30, 2005, 5:20 AM
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Why sandbag? For the Easy Money!
Coincidentally, Easy Money was the nickname I slapped on a local female comp climber who did what you just described. Hah! Plus you can write it short, real coolkid IM like, EZ$. She didn't like it much, but she did seem to prefer it to the other one I suggested, "The Sure Thing."
Maybe it's time for me to pull those old Cliffs out of the closet and take down the Beginners! :lol:
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neuroshock
Aug 30, 2005, 7:29 AM
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there exists an alternative explanation of 'had a great day out.' sometimes, scenarios that seem to be sandbags aren't the case after all.
in your example, you highlighted the breakdown that happens to be used for the Triple Crown series. for example, last year i honestly did consider myself 'intermediate' by those lines. as the Triple Crown website states: In reply to: Important Note: Choose a category based on whether or not you could complete two previously unclimbed problems (in a given day) of that grade. That will likely put you into the appropriate category.
some would say i sandbagged.
on the other hand, by the time i got to Hound Ears i had sent only 2 V6's and 1 V7 ever. at Hound Ears, i attempted 3 V6's getting completely shut down over several attempts each. i fought for those V5's. some of which i had done before, the others i watched and gleaned beta to conserve energy by flashing them. by the end of the day, even though i drank 4 liters worth of water and gatorade (and had GORP, etc), my body was seizing up in my calves, quads, biceps, triceps, hand/forearm (ya know...when your fingers get stuck closed and you have to use the other hand to open them), lats, and abdominals.
at Horse Pens, i had to fight hard for the V5's and attempted a handful of V6's, getting nowhere. my V7 was a "V?" only in the point range of the V7's. for someone of my size and strengths it was maybe a V4. getting a handjam 7 and a half feet above a pedestal (start hold), immediately dynoing to a flat lip, and then topping out was the beta for "Beer, Guts, No Glory." at the end of the day i was in nearly as much of a physical wreck as i was after Hound Ears.
"Beer, Guts, No Glory" and the V7 at LRC, "Manute Bol," were suggested to me by locals as doable V7's when i solicited for beta the night before. it's all about strategy, too.
now some would say that since i pulled off 9 V5's and a V6/7 in a day, i should surely be able to do 2 V6's, right? IMO, i wasn't strong enough nor technically competent enough to pull off multiple V6's. my strength was in recovery and strategy. now, i'm sure i could have intentionally gone and hunted down every V6 and V7 to try to get more than one, but having not done many before the series, that seemed like a waste of time and "number chasing."
to answer the questions you posed in your last paragraph.... if i were certain that i could do several problems in the Adv. category, yes i would enter it. if i wasn't sure if i could do more than 1 problem that falls under the Adv. category, i would go Intermediate and climb my absolute best, holding nothing back.
and if i had successfully sent 2 V6's or higher? i would've gladly bumped myself up.
-mike
oh, and kinda related but not exactly--i pity those that feel the need to compete and win takes precedence over the spirit of climbing. i see climbing comps as huge bouldering sessions. i get taken by the flow and energy and get madly inspired to get on things and push my limits, feeding off of the positive vibes. sometimes that's the difference between "send time" and not.
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neuroshock
Aug 30, 2005, 7:47 AM
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oh, and (as if i didn't already write enough) if those people who do sandbag can't be honest enough with others to bump themselves up...
1, i can't fathom how they function day-to-day, having taken advantage of others' honesty (sandbagging only works in your favor if stronger opponents didn't sandbag, too).
2, they suck
3, it's not really any skin off of my back. my sense of competition is, ultimately, a competition with myself. back when i competitively swam, i could "lose" an event but still "win" if i improved my best time. i feel the same way about climbing. i'll give it my all and try to improve, all the while enjoying the path there. the prizes are more of a bonus than anything else. i'm there for the atmosphere charged with positive 'send' vibes. i'm there to make new friends. i'm there because the money goes to a good cause and their topos/tags make finding things so much easier. i'm there for the fun and camaraderie. same goes for ABS comps.
-mike
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flatstateclimber
Aug 30, 2005, 10:12 PM
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I concur. I wondered about this as I was registering for the Triple Crown this year. I've been climbing for about a year and a half. About half of the routes on my scorecard will likely fall in the beginner category (hopefully V2s!). I know of several routes at HP40 that fall in the intermediate that are within my current ability. Could I sandbag and send 9 V2s and a V4? More than likely. That's not good sportsmanship in my opinion.
I know I'm not going to win. No worries. I'm excited about climbing with a lot of awesome people. That's more the spirit of comp climbing that I'm interested in, not the free stuff...
Rock on!
--BJ
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madriver
Aug 30, 2005, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: The Division You Belong In.
...infirmed..
I encourage sandbagging.....it will help with the hurricane relief effort....
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korntera
Aug 30, 2005, 11:16 PM
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When i entered a climbing competition I was climbing V2 and 5.9, 5.10 and above was the intermediate, i signed up for the beginner and during the first of 4 sessions didn't climb a single route(out of 6) they were all to hard, the next week when the problems were rated they were all 5.10 and one 5.9, there was only one person in the beginner category that ended up getting a send that day. The next week ended up being a differnt story, they were still rated 10's but felt a bit easier than last week. to make a long story short, i ended up winning the comp becaue by the time it was over(1 month later) I was able to climb 10+ but before the comp i had only climbed 1 10 at the gym in 3 months of climbing. The comp made me get better faster than i ever had before but i surely didn't sandbag.
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paulj
Aug 30, 2005, 11:27 PM
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We should just go back to Gill's B1-B2-B3 system. There were two versions of this, if I remember correctly, so let's go with the simplest:
B1: The problem has been done by more than one person.
B2:: The problem has been done by one person, who has been able to repeat it only once.
B3: The problem has been done once, and even that person can't do it again.
I'd venture to say that everybody at a given comp would be in the B1 category.
Voila: problem solved.
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susiederkins
Aug 30, 2005, 11:50 PM
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Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be an extra lot of sand-bagging in the womens' categories? I think that this might be more pronounced in comps where the division recommendations for women are the same as for men (Beginner: v0-v2, intermediate: v3-v5, advanced: v6-v8, open v8+) ... most women who boulder v6+ will just go in the open category, those that boulder v3-v4 will go in the intermediate category, and there will be no-one in the advanced category. I like the comps where they space things out more evenly, or normalize the results by dividing things up into even quartiles. Neh?
Hmm, and if you were a v3-v5 climber and put yourself in the advanced category while the other female climbers bashfully declined, what would that be ... a reverse-sandbag?
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suprdude22
Aug 31, 2005, 2:55 AM
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I don't mean to stir up a hornets nest with this, but I dint know that there is much intentional sandbagging in women's divisions. Disclaimer: This is just a theory and may or may not be true, and is not necessarily true of all women either, but just a generalization. (Please don't hunt me down, unless you're cute) One thing I have noticed about women, is that a large number of them don't seem to think they are as strong of climbers as they are. Or, they don't push themselves through climbs like guys do (not that it is a bad thing, climb at your pace as long as you are having fun). My point I guess, is that the women may not really be intentionally sandbagging, they may really think that they perform at the next higher level, or just not want to push themselves too hard. Again, this is only a theory, I don't mean to offend women climbers. I would actually prefer watching women climb. I think they have a much more fluid style and better technique w/ out having to force their way through moves. That's my 2 cents (probably only worth about 1). Lata
Mike
P.S. BJ's climbing shoes smell really bad. he he.
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curt
Aug 31, 2005, 3:09 AM
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In reply to: We should just go back to Gill's B1-B2-B3 system. There were two versions of this, if I remember correctly, so let's go with the simplest: B1: The problem has been done by more than one person. B2:: The problem has been done by one person, who has been able to repeat it only once. B3: The problem has been done once, and even that person can't do it again. I'd venture to say that everybody at a given comp would be in the B1 category. Voila: problem solved.
Well, your "simplest" version is wrong. What's your next simplest version?
Curt
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clausti
Aug 31, 2005, 4:31 AM
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In reply to: Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be an extra lot of sand-bagging in the womens' categories? I think that this might be more pronounced in comps where the division recommendations for women are the same as for men (Beginner: v0-v2, intermediate: v3-v5, advanced: v6-v8, open v8+) ... most women who boulder v6+ will just go in the open category, those that boulder v3-v4 will go in the intermediate category, and there will be no-one in the advanced category. I like the comps where they space things out more evenly, or normalize the results by dividing things up into even quartiles. Neh? Hmm, and if you were a v3-v5 climber and put yourself in the advanced category while the other female climbers bashfully declined, what would that be ... a reverse-sandbag?
how, exactly, is bouldring v3-v4 and going in the intermediate catagory sandbagging? it isnt, that's correct.
there just tend to be way fewer competitors in the higher catagories.
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musicman
Aug 31, 2005, 4:56 AM
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well, in the comps i've entered if you scored to high on your card (you got points for problems you sent) for what division you were in they just bumped you up, so basically if you sandbagged yourself you'd get screwed :D
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edge
Aug 31, 2005, 12:47 PM
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As I said the last time this was brought up, this is exactly why I personally advocate taking all of the prizes and distributing them evenly by random drawing among all of the competitors. It totally eliminates the need for anyone to sandbag, unless they just want bragging rights and that is even more pathetic.
The possible exception is if the comp has an Open (Elite) division with a cash purse, in which case the money should be dished out according to the top three male and female finishers; this gives incentive for people to sack up and enter those categories, and to push themselves to new heights. You would then distribute the shoes, guidebooks, plastic holds, and do-dads by random drawing to all other categories.
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gremlin
Sep 6, 2005, 1:58 AM
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Someone threw this up about the Triple Crown:
http://www.seclimbers.org/...6212&highlight=excel
Seems like a decent system...it probably does have a few flaws, and I'd probably raise the top ends of the percentiles a bit(maybe 92-93, 70, and 35 respectively), but it does look like it's better than the current system. Anyone?
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flatstateclimber
Sep 6, 2005, 2:13 AM
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That does seem like a pretty fair way to do things. It pushes you to climb hard. It discourages sandbagging. I say discourages rather than prevents because given enough ingenuity, someone could find a way to cheat it.
The only real flaw I see is that someone who has a bad day (and would have normally climbed in advancee or open), say sends only 2 V7s might wind up winning intermediate, depending on the point totals for the problems.
--BJ
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t-dog
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Sep 8, 2005, 6:59 AM
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I personally view entering comps and scoring problems more of a reflection of what makes you happy at the end of the day than anything else.
The question is, "Do you go to a comp to compete at the highest level you can? or do you go to a comp to win in the highest division you can?"
In my view those are two completely different things, and I know where I stand, having taken a beating and come dead last in Open many times. But in my opinion, I'ld rather be last in Open than first in Advanced.
Do you go to a competition to push yourself, or to bring home a prize?
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t-dog
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Sep 8, 2005, 7:05 AM
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In reply to: That does seem like a pretty fair way to do things. It pushes you to climb hard. It discourages sandbagging. I say discourages rather than prevents because given enough ingenuity, someone could find a way to cheat it. The only real flaw I see is that someone who has a bad day (and would have normally climbed in advancee or open), say sends only 2 V7s might wind up winning intermediate, depending on the point totals for the problems. --BJ
Whatever system you have for scoring and laying out divisions, if someone is bent on cheating it to win a category, they're going to be able to, regardless of how good your scheme was.
I've been to a couple comps where they would look at the point gap between successive ranking climbers to figure out where to make the cuts for the division and would bump people around at will. Worked out pretty good from what I recall, although it was more of a guestimation than anything official.
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docburner
Oct 19, 2005, 5:47 AM
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How about this idea:
Top few people get some kind of guarenteed prize. Like the cash purse or whatever.
Everyone else is rated into a bracket, ie:
90-100% = 9
80-88% = 8
etc
Whatever the number you are is the number of times you get to put your name into the basket. For each prize you draw a name out of the basket. Nobody can win more then 1 prize (start with the best prizes first)
Everyone is rewarded for doing their best. Everyone has a chance at a prize.
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edge
Oct 19, 2005, 1:19 PM
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http://www.triplecrownbouldering.org/results.php
The OP won Intermediate.
I think that once you win a division, then you should automatically be forbidden to compete at that level again, and should step it up to the next higher level. Of course, Open is an exception to this rule.
Otherwise, you are just cheating yourself.
I coach a kid who has competed in Elite (Open) for 5 years, ever since she wasd 12 years old.
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angry
Oct 19, 2005, 2:35 PM
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This sort of thing used to be rampant in mountain bike racing. The rules stated that you could enter any division you wanted, but could only go up. So many really good cyclists entered in Beginner or Sport. Some would move up and some wouldn't. I'm unsure if the rules have changed.
Assholes? Hardly. This rampant sandbagging brought the level up across the board. True beginners got fast enough to ride with the baggers. It's the trickle up effect.
Road cycling is based on points, everyone starts as a beginner (cat 5) and works their way up as they earn the points. It is still sandbagged though because you need an enormous amount of points to get a mandatory upgrade. You can move up on your own with relatively few points. So if you want to race faster people (sanbag yourself) you can move up or if you want to earn some money, you can stay down. This and massive amounts of people racing has brought the speed up significantly at the races.
I'm not a competition climber so dis me if you'd like. If you've got a real problem with sandbaggers you need to look at your reasons for competing. Do you want to win money and prizes? Or do you want to push yourself to the limit and improve your overall climbing as a result?
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edge
Oct 19, 2005, 2:48 PM
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In reply to: I'm not a competition climber so dis me if you'd like. If you've got a real problem with sandbaggers you need to look at your reasons for competing. Do you want to win money and prizes? Or do you want to push yourself to the limit and improve your overall climbing as a result?
Precisely my point, thank you.
I hate when people win "Intermediate" knowing all the while that they will win. I call chickenpoop on that.
I do think, however, that once someone has reached that level, then they should just step it up a notch.
All of the kids that I coach adhere to this, and I work very hard at making them feel proud for placing 6th in "open" over first in 'Intermediate"
If you are competing, then "intermediate' means "middling." There is nothing wrong with that, but by the same token, it also means you have settled for less.
For anyone who moves up to "intermediate" from "beginners," well that is a proud moment, and I commend you.
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clausti
Oct 20, 2005, 4:32 AM
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:: vauge feeling of disgust.::
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