|
|
|
|
johngo
Sep 24, 2005, 5:21 AM
Post #1 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 37
|
When climbing with more than four folks, most us have found that rapping with this crowd can take up a LOT of time – esp. if you have a few newbies along. Here’s a crafty rope trick I thought of recently that makes the process much faster. This has been field tested several times, and works nicely. (If you never rap with a group of more than 2, you can stop reading here =^)
The big time suck in rapping, especially with beginners, is that people can take a L O T of time getting ready to go – getting the rope rigged, double checking the setup, moving into position, etc. If one person can be doing all this, i.e., being in the “on deck circle” while another is rapping, the total rap time can almost be cut in half. Here’s how to do it.
Thread the rope as for a normal rap. Tie a fig 8 on a bight about 1 foot down from the anchor on each side of the hanging rope, and clip each resulting loop to the anchor with a locker. You now have two fixed single lines, allowing one of two things: one climber can rap at a time on a single line while another is rigging their rope and getting ready to rap the moment the climber ahead of them is on the ground, or (bomber anchor only!) two climbers can rap at once on each strand of the rope. The last climber unties the knots, cleans the biners, and raps normally.
To add extra friction for more control with a single strand, just clip a biner to your leg loop (gate up and out) and clip the brake strand through it. To add more friction, bring your brake hand up in front of you.
For those of us who lead/guide groups, I hope you find this useful. Your comments are appreciated. Here’s a photo to hopefully clarify, and yes, it’s the 5.11 grade IV called The Side of the House:
http://outdoordads.org/...limbing/grouprap.jpg
Le'ts hope this generates some good disucssion. If anyone sees something lethally wrong with this rig, please do us all a favor by pointing it out. If you find it useful, give that a mention as well.
Wind at your back,
johnGo
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Sep 24, 2005, 5:30 AM
Post #2 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: When climbing with more than four folks, most us have found that rapping with this crowd can take up a LOT of time – esp. if you have a few newbies along. Here’s a crafty rope trick I thought of recently that makes the process much faster. This has been field tested several times, and works nicely. (If you never rap with a group of more than 2, you can stop reading here =^) The big time suck in rapping, especially with beginners, is that people can take a L O T of time getting ready to go – getting the rope rigged, double checking the setup, moving into position, etc. If one person can be doing all this, i.e., being in the “on deck circle” while another is rapping, the total rap time can almost be cut in half. Here’s how to do it. Thread the rope as for a normal rap. Tie a fig 8 on a bight about 1 foot down from the anchor on each side of the hanging rope, and clip each resulting loop to the anchor with a locker. You now have two fixed single lines, allowing one of two things: one climber can rap at a time on a single line while another is rigging their rope and getting ready to rap the moment the climber ahead of them is on the ground, or (bomber anchor only!) two climbers can rap at once on each strand of the rope. The last climber unties the knots, cleans the biners, and raps normally. To add extra friction for more control with a single strand, just clip a biner to your leg loop (gate up and out) and clip the brake strand through it. To add more friction, bring your brake hand up in front of you. For those of us who lead/guide groups, I hope you find this useful. Your comments are appreciated. Here’s a photo to hopefully clarify, and yes, it’s the 5.11 grade IV called The Side of the House: http://outdoordads.org/...limbing/grouprap.jpg Le'ts hope this generates some good disucssion. If anyone sees something lethally wrong with this rig, please do us all a favor by pointing it out. If you find it useful, give that a mention as well. Wind at your back, johnGo
It looks like it might be terribly difficult to pull your rope down. :lol:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
anykineclimb
Sep 24, 2005, 5:50 AM
Post #3 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 3593
|
Don't bother with the knots. just double rap 8^)
In reply to: The big time suck in rapping, especially with beginners, is that people can take a L O T of time getting ready to go... |
|
|
|
|
ctardi
Sep 24, 2005, 6:33 AM
Post #4 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2004
Posts: 1278
|
Just out of curiosity, how to you have a fourth class, 5.11?
|
|
|
|
|
gush
Sep 24, 2005, 6:34 AM
Post #5 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 22, 2004
Posts: 9
|
I think that your thinking in this matter is very ingenuitive.
I know exactly what you mean when you say that rapping with a party of four can take a lot of time, and i have wished many times that there was a faster more efficient way.
I don't think that your thinking is a matter of you being impatient at all!! your just wanting to boost efficiency in a normal rappelling situation, and the system you suggested also supports more one on one attention and teaching time while the others are rappelling. Your idea is very smart cause it can also make getting of a mountain due to weather or some other unforeseen problems (rock fall, injured climber, rap out time, etc.) quicker without compromising safety.
The things i potentially see that could create a problem with your system is this. Although you have clipped your caribeaners to the shelf of your system, you only clipped each side to one anchor point, which will minimize equalization of the system and create a huge shock load if one anchor were to blow. I would suggest moving one figure eight on a bight to the power point and the second i would clip to both anchors of the shelf. that way you keep equalization minimize clutter and don't have any shock load in the system.
another way in which I try to speed up a repel in those situations is buy doing a guides repel. What I do is I thread the rope though the anchor like normal. Then I take my repel device and hook it up on both ropes. I would then get everyone else to hook up there belay devices in between my device and the anchor. This allows me to check every ones repel device before i repel myself. After checking everyone i would explain that they are going to feel me pulling a little on the rope, but to stand in line with my pull as to not fight it but allow the anchor to take the weight instead of themselves. i would then repel down setup the next anchor tie the ropes to the anchor with plenty of slack, take myself of repel and yell off repel. This would signal the next guy in line to disconnect his securing line and come on down. This system is great because now i can give them a fire mans belay by holding there brake if needed.
None the less great thinking I think it might be something I will use in the future
|
|
|
|
|
superbum
Sep 24, 2005, 6:38 AM
Post #6 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2002
Posts: 822
|
Wow...I like it a lot, very cool, and simple to boot! The only problem I see is untieing those figure eights everytime...maybe replace with a bowline on a bight?
If there are just three people, you could ditch the knots entirely and have the first two double rap (one on each side) while the third waits up top with the ropes already threaded through his/her device (extended off the harness w/ a sling) to prevent slippage if one goes too far too fast.
|
|
|
|
|
veganboyjosh
Sep 24, 2005, 7:44 AM
Post #7 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2003
Posts: 1421
|
In reply to: The only problem I see is untieing those figure eights everytime...maybe replace with a bowline on a bight?
clove hitches?
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Sep 24, 2005, 9:12 AM
Post #8 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
yes, bowlines are about the same pita as fig8s. but clove hitches would work fine. and id use lockers :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
slhappy
Sep 24, 2005, 2:09 PM
Post #9 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2002
Posts: 207
|
In reply to: Just out of curiosity, how to you have a fourth class, 5.11?
that would be Grade IV. I think I saw a discussion of grade, class, rating,etc... on this site somewhere before.
Back on topic...don't rush beginners, teach then right and let their experience speed them up safely.
For experienced rapellers (groups of 4) just double rappel. Very fast.
|
|
|
|
|
asandh
Sep 24, 2005, 3:51 PM
Post #10 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 788
|
:)
|
|
|
|
|
topher
Sep 24, 2005, 4:01 PM
Post #11 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 477
|
ok what you have build is ok but if you are really worreid about time why would you not just do a simel rap... im not going to explaine it, but its fast and then you can still pull the rope.. with your system you could just tie the rope off and go off the 2 single lines..
|
|
|
|
|
chemicalclimber
Sep 24, 2005, 4:24 PM
Post #12 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 18, 2005
Posts: 79
|
I don't see how this sacrifices safety. The only way things are sped up is by the fact that you can be setting up someones rap device while someone else is actually rappelling. The actual process of threading your device, checking biners, leaning back to make sure your setup holds you before unclipping, etc. will not be sped up in any way. It's just that you can have more than one thing going on at once.
Nice idea, johngo.
Something you could do to save yourself even more time is thread the part of the rope that is currently fed through the quicklink through the chains or rap hangars (leaving the rest of the setup the same) then when it's time for the last person to rap, untie the 2 figure eights (or bowlines or cloves or whatever), then your rope is all ready to go so you can pull it afterwards (and you don't have to pull up half the rope to thread it, since its already done).
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Sep 24, 2005, 6:16 PM
Post #14 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
Why not just tie a single 8 on a bight in the center of the rope, and clip that to your anchor? It would be simpler, and there'd be less extension possible should one leg of the anchor fail. You'd lose a little of the separation between strands that your method gives, but an inch or two wouldn't make that much of a difference.
Or is there something I'm missing?
Edit: Here's my method:
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~geist9/doublerap.jpg
Photo from Shower Curtain, 5.7 C2 VI, Village Apartments Peak, Georgia
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Sep 24, 2005, 6:40 PM
Post #15 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
In reply to: Why not just tie a single 8 on a bight in the center of the rope, and clip that to your anchor? It would be simpler, and there'd be less extension possible should one leg of the anchor fail. You'd lose a little of the separation between strands that your method gives, but an inch or two wouldn't make that much of a difference. Or is there something I'm missing? Edit: Here's my method: http://www.arches.uga.edu/~geist9/doublerap.jpg Photo from Shower Curtain, 5.7 C2 VI, Village Apartments Peak, Georgia
HEHEHE, this is what I'd do myself. I wondered if anyone would come up wiht this better solution for the same problem.
Ix-nay on the ope-ray eaking-bray.
|
|
|
|
|
veganboyjosh
Sep 24, 2005, 6:55 PM
Post #16 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2003
Posts: 1421
|
In reply to: In reply to: Why not just tie a single 8 on a bight in the center of the rope, and clip that to your anchor? It would be simpler, and there'd be less extension possible should one leg of the anchor fail. You'd lose a little of the separation between strands that your method gives, but an inch or two wouldn't make that much of a difference. Or is there something I'm missing? Edit: Here's my method: http://www.arches.uga.edu/~geist9/doublerap.jpg Photo from Shower Curtain, 5.7 C2 VI, Village Apartments Peak, Georgia HEHEHE, this is what I'd do myself. I wondered if anyone would come up wiht this better solution for the same problem. Ix-nay on the ope-ray eaking-bray.
this method requires the last person rapping to clip the rope completely from the anchor, before clipping it back in to rap. the op's method does not.
granted, there are methods to avoid dropping the rope (8 on a bight clipped to harness), but that takes time, and the top method avoids that altogether.
|
|
|
|
|
tenesmus
Sep 24, 2005, 8:00 PM
Post #17 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 263
|
This seems more applicable to a canyoneering setting with a group. I like both methods. I'll probably use the first with clove hitches on the biners. Does this make sense to you guys?
|
|
|
|
|
veganboyjosh
Sep 24, 2005, 8:11 PM
Post #18 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2003
Posts: 1421
|
what kinda knot is that "power point"? it looks like a figure 8 or an overhand, but one of those bends has what appears to be 4 strands. the two legs of the anchor look doubled, but the loop looks like it's only two strands, not four.
|
|
|
|
|
johngo
Sep 24, 2005, 8:43 PM
Post #19 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 37
|
Hello all,
Wowzer, there's some good ideas being tossed around on this, just as I hoped! I'll try to address a few concerns/ideas that have been raised.
- I don't feel that this sacrifices safety in a significant manner. It's more a matter of moving with maximum efficiency. This cuts the down time to almost nil on the rap, and only adds the slight curveball of rapping on a single line. If anyone rapping is not comfortable with this, then they simply rap on the strands normally. (I don't teach boy scouts, BTW.)
- I've simulrapped in certain situations, but it's not something I've been very comfortable with. Definetely a technique for very experienced folks.
- Wow, that shower curtain route looks sweet! The rig you have works fine if you are rapping on biners that you plan on leaving behind, but not so well if you have a rap ring or are through webbing. In that case, the last person would have to break it all down, pull up half the rope, thread the anchor and toss the rope, which is not very efficient. With my rig, the middle of the rope is already running through the anchor, so the last person can clean the biners and untie the knots (in about 30 seconds) and rap normally.
- Agreed, a clove in place of the fig 8 is a good option. I've not had a big problem untying the fig 8, but a clove would be easier.
- Agreed, there is a potential for shock loading with the rig as pictured. In practice I clip both biners into the powerpoint. (I tried taking several pictures of this and they all looked too cluttered to explain well, so I moved the biners to the shelf for the photo.) I should remember for my future posts the importance of being specific with pictures.
- On the grade issue: Class 4 is moderate scrambling, Grade 4 refers to the committment of the route. It is kinda confusing. See Freedom of the Hills, Appendix for greater details. Here's a quick cut and paste from:
http://www.alpinist.com/grades/
National Climbing Classification System (USA):
NCCS grades, often called “commitment grades,” indicate the time investment in a route for an “average” climbing team. I and II: Half a day or less for the technical (5th class) portion of the route.
III:Most of a day of roped climbing.
IV: A full day of technical climbing.
V: Typically requires an overnight on the route, or done fast and free in a day.
VI: Two or more days of hard climbing.
VII: Remote walls climbed in alpine style.
Everyone, thanks for your ideas and comments. Keep 'em coming!
johnGo
|
|
|
|
|
landgolier
Sep 24, 2005, 8:46 PM
Post #20 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 714
|
The setup pictured above on Grime n' Grout (5.10 IV) doesn't work if you have to thread quicklinks or bail tat or whatever, as the last guy has to yard up the whole rope to get the rope ready to be pulled. I like the original setup, with cloves instead of 8's and not clipped in to the shelf if you don't have to (OP may have done that for clarity). People need to stop worrying about killing noobs, there's no reason not to do this to speed up a big group, and besides, if you have 2 experienced people you send 1 fist to do fireman's belays.
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Sep 24, 2005, 9:00 PM
Post #21 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
In reply to: what kinda knot is that "power point"? it looks like a figure 8 or an overhand, but one of those bends has what appears to be 4 strands. the two legs of the anchor look doubled, but the loop looks like it's only two strands, not four.
It's just your basic 8-on-a-bight. If you'll notice, whenever you tie one of those, the number of loops in your clip-in point is half the number of strands that show up on your knot. A figure 8 like your tie-in appears to have two strands in the knot, while the one I've got on my curtainrod, with two loops, appears to have four strands. Tie a couple, and you'll see.
The OP is right in that my method requires (once everyone but the last dude has rapped) you to dismantle the knot, pull the rope up, thread, toss, and then rap. I don't think this is that much more trouble than the extra setup involved with the Johngo method, but, since he's said that he's removed the shock-loading issue with the power-point clip, I don't really have any other objections.
|
|
|
|
|
superbum
Sep 24, 2005, 10:09 PM
Post #22 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2002
Posts: 822
|
Dude...you should send the OP (with a coupla quick changes that you've already acknowledged) into Rock and Ice as a "better beta" entry...they give away great prizes, harnesses, cams, etc!
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Sep 25, 2005, 3:30 AM
Post #23 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
I can think of one faster too.
Take a cordellette, tie it into a Y shaped loop with uneven sides or "legs":
0 < to rappell device
|| < knot
| \
| \ < to beginner climber
|
|
(sorry i dont have a digital camera to do this and post pics.
Take the loop on the top and rig it up with your rappell device, put another biner in for friction if you think you might need it. The beginner goes into the shorter arm of that cordellete, and the more experienced climber goes in to the longer arm and rigs a backup friction hitch off their belay loop.
Pros: Faster than going seperatly, uses 1 device, you get to stay close to your beginner to coach them over the edge. You beat them to the anchor to get a sling ready for them. All the newer climber has to do is get over the edge and go along for the ride. Gets you into possition to give a firemans for everyone else.
Cons: For overhanging raps it kinda sucks dangling next to each other. Your weighting your anchor with 2 people, so it better be a bomber rap anchor. You need a spare cordellette or a "sh*t ton" of slings. But if your going down with that many people you'll probably have it anyway.
So, say I have 3 beginners and myself to get down...and it needs to be quick.
I'd rig this for myself and the least confident of the beginners, Pre-Rig the other 2 so they can rap as soon as I unweight the rope, once at the next anchor/ ground I can give a firemans backup to the other 2 climbers. Its always a really good idea to have a backup, especially with newer climbers, so this way (giving the firemans) newer climbers dont have to dick around with a friction hitch and get all clustered up with it.
The only disadvantage to this is your not up top to coach the other climbers over the edge.
This system works really well, used it today actually.
I'll probably be using this and the simo-rap (1 person on each strand) for most every rappell I do from a bomber station. It speeds things up nicely.
Cheers,
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
far_east_climber
Sep 25, 2005, 2:15 PM
Post #24 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 873
|
Haven't read much of replies here so I may be just about t repeat something. If I want to speed up a group rappel I sometimes use the 'alpine rappel escape' technique (or whatever it was called in the book). It's basically just about everybody clipping on all their rap devices to the rope before they head off, so when it's your turn to go, all you have to do is clip on your device to the belay loop or sling and whizz down.
|
|
|
|
|
iltripp
Sep 25, 2005, 4:05 PM
Post #25 of 51
(6114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 1607
|
For the most part I think the OP is a fairly good idea, except that I don't like the idea of newbies rapping on single strands. You seem to think that's ok, but I would only use your method for experienced climbers.
At a place like Stone mountain, where you're rapping down slab, I'm perfectly comfortable simul-rapping, and I usually do. A single strand rap as you describe would probably be fairly easy in this case.
One method I picked up on this site that I have used many times for new climbers (I've taught a few how to rappel) is this: (*this isn't for speed, but more for safety).
Climbers new to rappelling often aren't comfortable rigging the belay device without supervision. I like to be there and make sure they're doing it right. At the same, I don't like sending noobs down first. It's better to be there to give them a fireman's break, and I prefer to make sure I go down first to find the anchors and deal with any tangles that would cause long delays for a newer climber.
So, I supervise the noob setting up to rappel and make sure that everything is ok. Then, I take the tail end of the rope (i.e. their brake strand), tie a figure eight in a bight in both strands and clip into the anchor. Then, I rappel on this and get to the next set of anchors. All the noob has to do is unclip the 8-on-a-bight, untie it, and rappel. Down below, I can make sure they get a fireman's break, and at the same time I can start to thread the rope for the next rappel.
While slow rapping is certainly a hastle and not enjoyable, with new climbers, I would rather take the extra precaution and use my method than try to rush newbies
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
