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Are you a Climber or a Criminal?
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hosebeats


Oct 14, 2005, 5:44 PM
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My climbing partner and I have a set of requirements that an activity has to meet before we commit to it.

Hard?
Scary?
Fun?

Climbing, mt. biking, surfing, ect. fit those.

I think that my draw toward hard and scary activities comes from an intense desire for adventure that wasn't fulfilled when I was a kid. Now that I have the means to satisfy my cravings I just feel restless when I'm cooped up at work or at my apartment. I have a love/hate feeling toward climbing magazines. When I can't climb or get outside they remind me of what I could be doing, making me feel even more restless.

However I feel no desire to use drugs, gamble, or commit violent crimes. I drink about a beer a day. I usually have one with dinner, not because I'm a drunk but because I like the way beer tastes. So I guess I straddle the generalization.

The second article makes a good point, I think. It states that as society becomes more and more advanced, as we pad our environment with ever increasing safety measures and find ways to avoid even smaller and smaller risks there are those kinds of people, like most reading this I'd guess, that feel that the world has become too tame and controlled. I for one fantasize about untouched wild, virgin walls, loose rock, and sleeping under the stars.

Perhaps my attention wanders too easily or I'm just genetically predisposed to risk taking but I have yet to find an equivalent to pulling a hard move above gear. Nothing penetrates my conscience, my attention does not waver, I feel solid and unshakable.


shanz


Oct 14, 2005, 6:07 PM
Post #27 of 45 (4198 views)
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Re: Are you a Climber or a Criminal? [In reply to]
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As a matter of fact, I find it disheartening that ANY climbers would hunt.
Stealing; defacing property; drunk in public . . . sure. good times. But murdering birdies and bunnies and deeries? Come on guys. Does that really make you feel like you have a big penis


Lets see
1 i hunt for food
2 there an over population of deer because of lack of predatory animals and lack of habitat
3 innoncent animals? Think about the fact that the beef and pork and chicken you buy at the grocery store came from animals bred to be slaughtered
4 less chemical modifying in hunted animals rather that animals that are grown
5 hunting regulations help preserve population
6 the white tail deer population was nearly whiped out in north america in the mid 1940's because of lack of hunting, lack of predatory animals, and lack of regulation

forgot to mention
i dont steal
i dont gun hunt


rockkid55


Oct 15, 2005, 6:28 AM
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If you hunt because you really really have no other way to get a meal--sure, that's good times. otherwise, have an apple pie.

And don't give me any crap about "ooohh....the deer overpopulate if we don't hunt them." sure. and for the thousands of years before the white man got here with their rifles, deer were just so overpopulated in the Americas, just like the buffalo and the bears and the wolves. No balance whatsoever before sport hunters. No sirree.

Anyway. I just realized I have a small penis. I think I need to go shoot an animal to feel better about myself.


paganmonkeyboy


Oct 15, 2005, 6:42 AM
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In reply to:
And don't give me any crap about "ooohh....the deer overpopulate if we don't hunt them." sure. and for the thousands of years before the white man got here with their rifles, deer were just so overpopulated in the Americas, just like the buffalo and the bears and the wolves. No balance whatsoever before sport hunters.

dude
you're missing the point - we've destroyed the habitat for the large predators that *kept these populations in check*
You see a lot of jaguars in florida these days ? mountain lions in colorado ? wolves ? these animals need lots of room to hunt, and we come along and chop their habitat all into little parcels and poof - they are going. the deer, on the other hand, just hang out and eat scrub and breed, and less and less bigger game to hunt them - this is where the balance gets out of whack, because we remove the hunter side of the equation - this is where the bears and the wolves are going...
now as for buffalo - maybe a 200 years ago massacring the herd from the back of a train was considered 'sport', but it surely isn't now - and this was more a tool to shatter a culture and push the indigenous around and seize the land than a hunt per se - check the context...
(Did they cover this shit in social studies and science in high school ? I was taught most of this years ago, and it seems they aren't covering a lot of this any more in school..this isn't meant to be a dis - I'm honestly curious as to why it seems a lot of things I thought we all were taught just aren't being taught...)

right now, the biggest predator a deer has to fear is a car coming around the corner at 75...


paganmonkeyboy


Oct 15, 2005, 7:09 AM
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and - this all ties back into the OP, because deer, as we all know, are neither climbers nor adrenaline junkies, and hence *need* predators to keep the population in check...


saltamonte


Oct 17, 2005, 3:37 AM
Post #31 of 45 (4198 views)
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Hmmm the opening argument is that since accidents don't diminish the number of climbers who visit a climbing area we (the climbers who climb despite news someone else died there) are like criminals seeking risk. does that mean people who are undaunted by news that people died in car accidents on the free way they use are too? The fact that climbers are undeterred by reports of accidents is not reflective of our disregard for risk, but reflective of the fact that we hold ourselves responsible for our safety.
for example when you see a car that has missed a curve and hit a tree it may strengthen your resolve to be aware and not drive while tired but it doesnt likely make you feel in greater risk. Generally we recognize that our safety on the road is mostly our responsability.

to illustrate if a sport climbing area had several high profile accidents due to failed bolts I believe there would be a decrease in climbers (since that is something outside of their control).

I believe it is more accurate to say that climbers are more comfortable being fully responsible for themselves than to say they like to risk or intentionally endanger their lives. I know at least that is a better description of me but then again i don't free solo much


stzzo


Oct 17, 2005, 4:08 AM
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In reply to:
you're missing the point - we've destroyed the habitat for the large predators that *kept these populations in check*
Or directly killed them off en masse so they don't eat the sheep...


sumo


Oct 17, 2005, 8:13 AM
Post #33 of 45 (4198 views)
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3 points to make.

1. Its the Seattle PI

2. Based on the thread title I thought this would be about buildering

3. Although I don't agree with everything in the article, I do enjoy the discussion it sparked. I would rather read a thread that has some decent comments then about using flour as chalk.

3.1 After some thinking, I really do enjoy the rush after a climb that is pushing my limit.


S


e_free


Oct 17, 2005, 8:49 AM
Post #34 of 45 (4198 views)
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easily bored: yep
low job satisfaction: yep (except counseling kids, and being an emt)

abuse drugs: never had any
gamble: nope
commit crimes: nope
promiscuous: nope
heavy drinking: nope

reckless driving: go carts, no brakes! :P

have a hard time deriving meaning and purpose from everyday life: see low job satisfaction

"But if you... never know what you'll be doing next, you're probably going to thrive." BINGO! come to think of it, nearly every job ive had and almost all the travel ive done has pretty much been like that.

what i like most about climbing is the peace i feel when im done. the dirty, sweaty, weary tranqulity after conquering the part of me that is satisfied only in the moment, and savored just after, in presence of good friends :D


mcgivney_nh


Oct 17, 2005, 11:14 AM
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In reply to:
Generally, the high-sensation-seeking types fall into four broad categorizations. Some fill more than one: thrill and adventure seeking; experience seeking (non-conformity or impulsiveness, for example); disinhibition seeking (such as multiple sex partners, drugs or drinking); and boredom susceptibility.

someone probably already posted that part of the article, but I fall into at least two of those catagories

-Sean


static_endurance


Oct 17, 2005, 1:52 PM
Post #36 of 45 (4198 views)
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Interestingly enough, i saw a movie called adrenaline at the OMNIMAX in the toronto science center, and they linked base jumpers with criminal acts in the same way. I think they were saying it was that there was more dopamine in the system than the average person. I think. I mostly just went to watch sweet basejumping on the OMNIMAX screen.

rockkid55, hunting is natural dude. Whether it be a sharp stick or a high powered rifle, so long as every part of the animal is used, and the species isn't overhunted, it's alright. It's the way the world functioned for thousands of years. If you're so worried about the animals, then become vegan, because the meat and dairy industries of the world are far worse than any hunting party. Seeing as how your standard cow is bred in small pens purely for your wonderful steaks, and how chickens are kept in cages that they can't move in so they can lay eggs for their entire lives, you attacking people who hunt freerange animals is about the most hypocritical thing you can do.

Oh, and i can say this because i'm a lactose intolerant vegetarian. So suck it up, buttercup. Those deer lived much more peaceful lives and died in a much better way than your pigs in a slaughterhouse.


notch


Oct 17, 2005, 2:30 PM
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I see nothing exciting about murdering innocent animals with a high-powered rifle that could down a jumbo jet.

Shall we then infer that you would find it exciting murdering innocent animals with a lesser powered rifle then? And believe you me,neither hunting or anything else makes me feel like I've got a big penis...oh wait, that didn't come out right at all.


wjca


Oct 17, 2005, 2:50 PM
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Now I know the whole hunter gatherer thing is a theory and a cliche one at that. But I see parallels between hunters and climbers, HUGE parallels. I also see that the risk averse crowd, the touring crowd, has made inroads to climbing just as they have in biking.

DMT

So if climbers are the hunters, does that mean that boulderers are the farmers?


htotsu


Oct 21, 2005, 3:01 AM
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All of this reminded me of this other thread that adnix started - take a look:
"Psychology of climbing and risk taking"
http://www.rockclimbing.com/....php?p=857965#857965

In reply to:
Is this true or not? What's your score in the test? I scored 36/40.

Zuckerman's sensation seeking test (takes 15 minutes) :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/...ensation/index.shtml


logicflash


Oct 21, 2005, 6:43 AM
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I scored 23 of 40...

...but I stole a pack of gum once.


kellie


Oct 21, 2005, 2:44 PM
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I spent the first 18 years of my life on a farm, and let me assure you it is not a low-risk activity. Physical injury is quite hard to avoid when working around large animals and heavy machinery seven days a week for years on end, and the loss of your livelihood is always imminent.

Climbing is a lark in comparison.


verticaladdict


Oct 21, 2005, 3:15 PM
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In reply to:

3. Although I don't agree with everything in the article, I do enjoy the discussion it sparked. I would rather read a thread that has some decent comments then about using flour as chalk.


hahaha that kills me, so true


renohandjams


Oct 21, 2005, 3:32 PM
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I think the article both overanalyzes and overgeneralizes. I have my own reasons for climbing and they don't include those mentioned.
I agree. Someone thought a little too hard about a possibile correlation and thought it might make for good reading. It was interesting that they listed firefighters because I used to be one. Maybe firefighting and climbing are somehow related, but I have never met a climbing kleptomaniac, at least not yet.


saltamonte


Nov 28, 2005, 2:11 PM
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In reply to:
3 points to make.


3.1 After some thinking, I really do enjoy the rush after a climb that is pushing my limit.


S

yes you want to push the limit but the climber & criminal argument takes it a step further they are saying "you like to RISK" your life. for their argument to be fully true you would need to feel that your best climbs were the free solos where you "pushed your limit" There is a big difference between pushing your limit when you understand that your protection will catch you if you fall and actually enjoying the feeling of risking your life.


paganmonkeyboy


Nov 28, 2005, 3:08 PM
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If you're so worried about the animals, then become vegan, because the meat and dairy industries of the world are far worse than any hunting party.

Testify !! I would also suggest a quick read of Fast Food Nation and The Mad Cowboy...oh man, by the third chapter you will swear off cow forever...

In reply to:
Those deer lived much more peaceful lives and died in a much better way than your pigs in a slaughterhouse.

true dat...

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