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cedk
Oct 18, 2005, 3:26 PM
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One of my climbing partners heard from someone in Jasper that there was an accident at the Throne last weekend and 2 climbers were injured and evacuated.
Can anyone confirm this? Hadn't heard anything more about it and since it didn't come from a climber I thought maybe the information was wrong and it was just some old lady breaking her hip in Mt. Judea or something.
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slacklinejoe
Oct 18, 2005, 3:44 PM
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Crap. I've yet to hear anything but I'll ask around. I had some friends down there on the 15th.
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reprieve
Oct 18, 2005, 4:02 PM
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I heard that a bolt blew on a climber at Cave Creek. The climber was reportedly okay but the belayer broke the climber's fall and was injured. I'm sure someone who knows better will post eventually.
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noshoesnoshirt
Oct 18, 2005, 4:46 PM
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From an email I recieved this morning:
> Ross Brown slipped and took a short fall onto the first bolt on The Beast
in
> Cave creek last weekend. The bolt pulled. He said the first bolt was
> roughly 20 feet off the deck, and that he was either right at it or only a
> little ways above it. He landed on his belayer and both rolled 30 feet
down
> the hill. Ross had a concussion, a scalp laceration requiring a couple
> staples, a broken rib and minor scratches. Brian Cross dislocated his hip
> joint by 2" and had to be medivacted out. I've not talked with Brian yet.
>
> According to Ross, the bolt appeared to be solid, did not move or have a
> spinning hanger. He had no reason to question the bolt.
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jumpingrock
Oct 18, 2005, 5:14 PM
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Wow a blown bolt :!: Any news on what type of bolt? Has anybody tried to determine why it blew?
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reprieve
Oct 18, 2005, 6:53 PM
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I was told that the bolt was good, but that the rock behind it was what blew. The bolt was also *supposedly* 12 years old.
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noshoesnoshirt
Oct 18, 2005, 7:51 PM
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A bunch of folks who've put up the majority of the routes out there tend to use 3/8" X 3" hardware. Even if the bolt didn't break the failure of the rock around it would be less likely if a beefier piece of hardware were used. (I use 1/2" X 3 3/4" in that area).
Not necessarily related, but check out the bolt I pulled out of Flying Elvis a while back;
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=23628
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kaylinr
Oct 18, 2005, 8:28 PM
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I remember the bolt spacing being pretty spicy on the bottom of the beast. Its a shame someone got hurt it. My only comfort in a little run out is that when I finally get to that bolt, I expect it to be solid.
Nice picture of the bolt from Flying Elvis. I'll try to not remember that the next time I'm flailing/falling on that route. :roll:
While there's a few Cave Creek regulars reading along, does anyone know the info on the climb that starts at Gimp and angles left? Stunning rock and something around stout 5.10?
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beny
Oct 19, 2005, 3:17 PM
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i'm quite curious why folks are so surprised by a bolt failing in arkie sandstone. is this new? no. several years ago, the first bolt on the arete below stick in your eye (also at cave) blew out. this didn't even happen with a fall, but simply someone yarding on a draw to aid past the move. for people who still climb down the road at that place called sam's, a tour through the popular routes with newly installed anchors will further demonstrate the poor holding power of expansion bolts in this rock. last chance, team international, coup d'etat, ultimate frisbie, etc, all show how arkie chews up and spits out bolts. i project that in a few years bolts will begin deteriorating to near failure at the ever popular "sport park" of arkie, hcr.
what to do, what to do.... instead of recomending folks upgrade to 1/2" from 3/8", lets get serious and start using glue-ins. this would solve the real problem of grainy rock crumbling and enlarging bolt holes over time, and rust would be much less of a concern. for the two of you out there who still bolt on lead, here's how i do it now. lead bolt with petzel's expansion bolt that is entirely removable, then come back and replace with glue-in stuff. it lets you use the same hole.
from a different angle, i spoke with sean about the route (and hopefully golsen will chime in), but he couldn't remember what kind of hardware they used. its been a few years. perhaps its time for cave to get an overhaul.
my best for a speedy recovery to the two involved.
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reprieve
Oct 19, 2005, 9:00 PM
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bah, double post
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reprieve
Oct 19, 2005, 9:02 PM
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from what I understand, in this particular instance the rock was the culprit and not the bolt itself. would having a glue-in instead even helped the situation?
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therealbovine
Oct 19, 2005, 10:08 PM
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Bummer! It always sucks when a climber gets hurt for any reason. Hope everyone heals up in a timely fashion and gets back out there climbing.
I have to agree with Ben, glue-ins should be used when possible in these areas (HCR, Sams, Cave Creek, etc...). The sandstone in Arkansassy tends to vary in quality in as little as a few feet of climbing. There are bolts at Cave Creek and Sams that I remember being put-in at least 12-15 years ago when 3/8" was considered the 'new standard'. And again like Ben said, there have been other bolt failures in the area (in all cases that I am aware of, the rock failed around the bolt). The 'solid looking' surface of the rock can often 'hide' the unknown softer, moist rock beyond, which can be and is often the cause of spinners and bad bolts in the area.
As I was taught years ago, always consider a bolt to be suspect. Back it up if you can (and in Arkansas, especially at HCR, you can almost always back-up a bolt with gear, or even skip the bolts and place gear in that nice crack next to the bolt, sad huh?) Be aware that sandstone looses strength after it becomes moist, and in the humidity does not allow it to dry out fast enough. The rock beyond the surface will stay moist for days or even weeks and can cause a bolt to fail or holds to break. Just a little something to think about.
Once again, best regards to the climbers injured in this accident with hopes of a speedy recovery.
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philbox
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Oct 19, 2005, 10:19 PM
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Stainless rings or Us should definitely be used in friable sandstone. We use rings with a 6 inch leg and countersink the ring so that the quickdraw sits a mere 1/4" away from the rock. We also use two pack epoxy cartridge glue in lieu of the cheaper polyester glue. The Two pack epoxy is a much more liquid glue that will seep into the surrounding substrate and thus give a much better bond to the rock bolt interface. A fully threaded leg to the ring will also give a far better bond as well. With a six inch leg and countersinking the bolt ends up being around 7 inches into the rock. Try and blow one of those suckers.
The above photo of the blown bolt looks like the expansion bolt was steel witha zinc yellow coating. A recipe for a lot of rust with the stainless hanger promoting a galvanic reaction. If rust were to be promoted in the hole that may contribute to the rock exploding.
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philbox
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Oct 20, 2005, 12:44 AM
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The thing is that friable sandstone is quite easy to drill anyway.
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ww
Oct 20, 2005, 1:06 PM
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Some folks in the area are using Philbox's technique and I for one think its great. Those bolts are way less obtrusive to the eye, almost hard to spot from the ground, stronger and last longer. Hard to get some people to change their ways though.
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cfnubbler
Oct 20, 2005, 1:28 PM
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In reply to: It would likely tripple the efforts required, as well as expense.
Both of which should be utterly irrelevant considerations if you're putting up routes. If you don't have the time, motivation, and money to do it right, leave it to someone who does. Too much is at stake for shortcuts.
-Nubbler
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aarong
Oct 20, 2005, 2:08 PM
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Sorry to hear about the accident at Cave Creek.
It's true that a lot of the routes are reaching the 15 year-old mark and a lot of the hardware has taken some serious punishment over the years. I've put up several routes at CC (using 3/8" x 3" Rawl expansion bolts) and I would like to go back and upgrade those with gule-ins. That is definently the way to go on overhanging sandstone routes.
Routes like Flying Elvis REALLY need beefy glue-in anchors - you can only take whippers on a 40-degree overhanging AR sandstone route for so long before the bolts and the rock around the bolts is going to give.
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beny
Oct 20, 2005, 2:59 PM
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i mispoke earlier about the petzel removable bolt. it is actually made by fixe, and is called the triplex. check it out.
a comment on hand drilling: try to avoid it in arkansas. even the best made hole by hand does not compare to one made by bosch. with the way arkie rock deteriorates, a perfectly formed bolt hole is essential for any significant holding power.
a further word on glue-ins: a situation such as this, where an accident is caused by rock failure is the perfect situation for a glue-in. while it may appear that the bolt is not the problem (b/c the rock failed, not the bolt), fixed hardware needs to be chosen based on the type of rock it will be placed in. i'm amazed by how little the average person knows about fixed gear. this is stuff we clip and fall on regularly. get educated on this type of stuff so you can make decisions about whether things are safe or not. remember, you trust your life to this stuff, do you really want to go at it blind?
aarong, what routes have you put up at cave?
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reprieve
Oct 20, 2005, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: a situation such as this, where an accident is caused by rock failure is the perfect situation for a glue-in.
why's that? are glue-ins less damaging to the rock because they don't expand?
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aarong
Oct 20, 2005, 4:36 PM
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To See and Believe (12+/13-) In the ampitheatre down from Gravity Slab
Apostle and Pagans (11) The left-angling route 2 routes left of Gravity Slab
Energy Crisis (11) Right of Ebony and Ivory
Grand Master Flash (12) Down and around the corner from Energy Crisis. Steep for the first 4 bolts turn a bulge, then to face.
Dancing Queen (9) Before the Beast. Route on beautiful yellow lichen walls.
Sea of Trees (11) Backcountry of Cave Creek - heading east along cliffline
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beny
Oct 20, 2005, 5:01 PM
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aarong, grand master flash is a sweet route. you've got a great eye. your route in the amphitheatre, is it the left or right route? and what's the other one? is it the kerry line?
there's been recent development around sams. have you done any of the new ones over there?
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aarong
Oct 20, 2005, 5:12 PM
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Thanks.
In the ampitheatre, mine's the left route. The other one is Kerry's. Mine was the first to go up in that area. It's one I would really like to upgrade the bolts on because it so so steep and it's in an area with a lot of water run-off.
Which new lines at Sams - which area(s)?
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sed
Oct 20, 2005, 5:39 PM
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Reprieve: yes the glue actually bonds chemically with the rock. most of this crappy rock is quite porous and the glue penetrates it, forming a large mass of metal and bonded rock that is very difficult to remove.
S
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