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ecjohnson
Nov 15, 2005, 4:23 AM
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I think I'm going to start a crusade against reviving dead threads! this one has been dead for over 2 years, and how many countless times do you think it has come up over the last 2 years without reviving this thread. I've been a memeber for about 8 months and reading the forums for longer, and I remember it other times. Maybe I'm getting fired up over nothing but n00bs need to check the date before their post! At least Jay got to tell rmelon that he was wrong, and it is ok to lead belay with a gri-gri! Just wait till we get someone who thinks their Reverso will auto lock when belaying the leader!
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rmleon
Nov 15, 2005, 5:54 AM
Post #152 of 198
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Well, it is your problem:
if you do not like old threads do not read old threads, do not post............
It is like someone saying "i do not like those who say 'I do not like' "....
Just do not come here to cry like a baby, it wasn't me who hit you in the head while climbing the kiddies' route and left you with that brain damage.
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ecjohnson
Nov 15, 2005, 6:45 AM
Post #153 of 198
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:lol: I know what I am say is ridiculous, there is good info in old posts sometimes. It agravates me a bit sometimes, but it's no big deal really, I was really trying to make fun of the situation more than be serious. I was serious about belaying the leader with a gri-gri. I may have had a lot of beer tonight also... make your own conclusion.
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rmleon
Nov 15, 2005, 6:59 AM
Post #154 of 198
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Ok, cool. :)
Anyway, just for sharing some info, someone said that there was an article about a small rock that cut the rope after it became incrustated in the GriGri....
All I could find was this:
http://www.esssar.org/Publications/documents/Public_Report_Appendix.pdf
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jimdavis
Nov 15, 2005, 7:43 AM
Post #155 of 198
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In reply to: gri gri's suck. I fell 20 feet IN A GYM and almost decked, belayed by a mature, experienced, knowledgable gri-gir user. that's what I have to say about that
maybe if you were using a gri-gri and not a "gri-gir" that wouldn't have happened. :wink:
i have yet to find one legitimate claim that a grigri was at fault in dropping someone. its always been user error, every single time i'm read about this shit. cam held against rock, threaded backwards, rope too skinny, rope holds catch down cause friggin people clip the biner through their tie in points wrong, ect.
cheers,
Jim
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daithi
Nov 15, 2005, 10:44 AM
Post #156 of 198
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In reply to: As far as I remember, it says clearly that the GriGri should not be used for Lead Belay. Yes, I have heard that some people do it.
Not only have I heard of such things happening I have also witnessed them with my own eyes! :roll:
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jt512
Nov 15, 2005, 4:37 PM
Post #157 of 198
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In reply to: gri gri's suck. I fell 20 feet IN A GYM and almost decked, belayed by a mature, experienced, knowledgable gri-gir user. that's what I have to say about that
Actually, your belayer sucked. Grigris work just fine.
Jay
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jimdavis
Nov 16, 2005, 3:21 AM
Post #158 of 198
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In reply to: In reply to: gri gri's suck. I fell 20 feet IN A GYM and almost decked, belayed by a mature, experienced, knowledgable gri-gir user. that's what I have to say about that Actually, your belayer sucked. Grigris work just fine. Jay
Well, yeah...that.
Jim
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granitegod
Nov 16, 2005, 8:32 PM
Post #159 of 198
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So, are you saying Gri-Gri's don't drop climbers, bad belayers do? Of course, an attentive belayer, proficient in working the Gri-Gri can provide a safe belay. But so can a hip belay.
I don't like the Gri-Gri because many belayers I've seen using them make the mistake of squeezing the unit to hold the cam open while feeding slack when a climber clips, often the time one is most likely to fall. Is it belayer error? Sure, but one that occurs partly because the unit's design makes it difficult to feed rope smoothly. I've seen many experienced Gri-Gri users make this mistake. In my opinion, it's just not as easy to operate as a tube style device, makng mistakes more likely.
Not to mention its heavy, expensive, can't rappel double ropes with it....yada yada yada. Ergo, they suck.
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jt512
Nov 16, 2005, 8:40 PM
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In reply to: I don't like the Gri-Gri because many belayers I've seen using them make the mistake of squeezing the unit to hold the cam open while feeding slack when a climber clips...
That's not a mistake. That's the way it's supposed to be done. The mistake is not quickly getting the brake hand back onto the brake side of the rope.
In reply to: Sure, but one that occurs frequently because the unit does not feed rope smoothly...
If the grigri doesn't feed smoothly, use a thinner rope. With ropes less than 10.2 mm, you can move a rope through a grigri faster than through an ATC.
In reply to: It seems many people prefer the gri-gri because of laziness....
And you know their motives how? Have you interviewed these supposed lazy belayers?
In reply to: While belayers who use the gri-gri FREQUENTLY (strict sport climbers) may become proficient enough to avoid this problem, many are not.
Anyone with enough coordination to climb can learn to use a grigri proficiently. They just need proper instruction (which is rarely given) and sufficient practice (equally rare).
Jay
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wings
Nov 16, 2005, 8:58 PM
Post #161 of 198
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In reply to: As far as I remember, it says clearly that the GriGri should not be used for Lead Belay. Yes, I have heard that some people do it.
"As far as I remember, it says clearly" ... heh. Where does it say this, right next to the picture of a guy lead belaying in the manual?
Be careful of what you say around here. I see the vultures have already swooped in, but I think they let you off pretty easy for that one.
- Seyil
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therealbovine
Nov 16, 2005, 9:13 PM
Post #162 of 198
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It was threaded backwards! Had to have been. Common mistake.
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granitegod
Nov 16, 2005, 9:39 PM
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jt 512, thanks for proving my point.
As you state "That's the way it's supposed to be done. The mistake is not quickly getting the brake hand back onto the brake side of the rope. " The design of the unit makes the belayer take their hand off the brake!! Duh!!
And as for your claim that "With ropes less than 10.2 mm, you can move a rope through a grigri faster than through an ATC", well, bull#$%.
And finally you state that "Anyone....can learn to use a grigri proficiently. They just need proper instruction (which is rarely given) and sufficient practice (equally rare)." You're absolutely right.
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saxfiend
Nov 16, 2005, 10:02 PM
Post #164 of 198
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In reply to: jt 512, thanks for proving my point. As you state "That's the way it's supposed to be done. The mistake is not quickly getting the brake hand back onto the brake side of the rope. " The design of the unit makes the belayer take their hand off the brake!! Duh!! And as for your claim that "With ropes less than 10.2 mm, you can move a rope through a grigri faster than through an ATC", well, bull#$%. And finally you state that "Anyone....can learn to use a grigri proficiently. They just need proper instruction (which is rarely given) and sufficient practice (equally rare)." You're absolutely right.
It's amazing how many people blame equipment for what is really auser screw-up!
JL
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jimdavis
Nov 16, 2005, 10:09 PM
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and we still have people arging that the most idiot-proof belay device ever invented is the problem here....
amazing.
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granitegod
Nov 16, 2005, 10:30 PM
Post #166 of 198
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As I said, a competent belayer CAN give a very safe belay with a Gri-Gri. But contrary to the belief that the auto-locking design makes the Gri-Gri safer, I believe that the more complicated design and operation of the Gri-Gri (compared to a tube) makes operator error more likely.
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j_ung
Nov 16, 2005, 10:41 PM
Post #167 of 198
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In reply to: and we still have people arging that the most idiot-proof belay device ever invented is the problem here.... amazing.
With respect, Jim, I don't think there's such a thing as an idiot-proof belay device. And, I think the Gri-gri is one of the least idiot proof of all. I offer this thread as evidence.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Gri-gris. I use one myself from time to time and I certainly don't blame the device for any of the near misses reported herein.
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martinheynert
Nov 16, 2005, 10:47 PM
Post #168 of 198
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Friends, a GriGri is a very secure and bullet proof belay device if used correct. The most important point is to install the rope in the right direction, but there is an engraved diagram for which end has to lead to the climber.
I have operated different GriGri's with many different ropes/diameters, down to 9.9 mm and up to 11 mm. Even with a new hyperdry rope of 10 mm, GriGri worked reliable.
For me it is an essential tool when belaying a partner who is bouldering out a UIAA 9/10, which can take some time.
It is not true that a GriGri is not recommended for belaying a lead climber in general, it is just not recommend for belaying a leader IN CLEAN ROUTES. This, because a lead fall with a fall factor coming close to 1 can produce an impact force of more than 1000 daN on the anchor point, which will rip out every friend and most stoppers.
To avoid this, one can use a Reverso or other tube style belaying devices. In the same falling situation, a Reverso would produce no more than 500 daN on the anchor point (friend), but on the other hand produces a rope slippage of 4 meters! In that case, using a leather glove for the belayer's brake hand is essential to avoid burning injuries.
On www.petzl.com/technique/simulators, there is an interactive fall simulator, which helps to determine the best belaying methode/tool for every situation, depending on the weight of the leader, the type of the anchor points and the type of the rope.
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glyrocks
Nov 16, 2005, 10:56 PM
Post #169 of 198
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I don't get it. Gri-gris aren't difficult to use. I guess the problem with calling it an idiot-proof device is too many people really are just complete fucking idiots. How much easier do you want it? I just can't believe people are dumb enough to screw up using a gri-gri. The point is that there is no device that someone won't screw up, no matter how simple.
Heh, that being said, I'll probably drop someone tomorrow. But if I do, it doesn't mean the gri-gri is error-prone or difficult to use- it means I'm a big fucking incapable idiot, just like everyone else that's actually dropped someone using a gri-gri.
edit: yea, that was a little cranky. Sorry.
---------
Martin: I know common wisdom is to not use a gri-gri on trad because of higher impact forces. But that assumes 1) trad gear is sketchier than bolts and, 2) you can't provide a dynamic belay by some other means. An experienced leader- in most cases (!)--should be able to place good gear and an experiences belayer should- again, in most cases--be able to provide a dynamic belay with a gri-gri. It may be more difficult to that with a gri-gri, but it certainly isn't as static as people say. At least I don't think so. I mean, I wouldn't use it on an ice route... As far as gear goes, using a gri-gri won't help when you place a micro-nut and whip on it, but you should probably be using a screamer and your belayer should probably be able to jump with your impact if he was using an ATC anyway.
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daithi
Nov 16, 2005, 11:26 PM
Post #170 of 198
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In reply to: The design of the unit makes the belayer take their hand off the brake!! Duh!!
Which in the case to the grigri is not necessarily unsafe, as long as you are aware of the need to get your hand off the cam if the leader peels just as you are yarding out slack. If you are paying attention and have even the slightest situational awareness there is not a problem.
I like the grigri a lot. I doubt it there are too many serious sports climbers who have a dislike or mistrust of the device since the grigri seems to be ubiquitous amongst those who climb hard sport! - at least in Europe.
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aimeerose
Nov 17, 2005, 12:01 AM
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I didn't read all the treads, so I don't know if someone already addressed this, but the weight differential shouldn't be a factor at all in why she didn't hold your fall. I am 100 lbs and have never not held a fall with people all the way up to 190 lbs. If anything, the gri gri should catch faster because you weigh more. I really like the gri gri because I weigh so much less than everyone I belay. I feel like it gives more friction than an ATC and thus keeps me on the ground more during leader falls.
I think your girlfriend MUST have had her hand squeezing the gri gri, or your rope is much thinner than you think, or maybe it's a dry treat. We recently got a 9.8 dry treat rope and sent it back cause the gri gri would not catch on it.
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cam
Nov 17, 2005, 12:06 AM
Post #172 of 198
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:deadhorse: but even dead horse threads are good for some amusement.
I would love to be in the OP's head the next time they are dropped by a faultless belayer with a TUBE device and the little voice in their head goes "well fuck me sideways, I wish they had used a Gri-Gri!"
Question though, why do people insist on using thin cords with a Gri-Gri????? Like in the post above, a 9.8mil dry cord not holding makes me thing a 9.8mil non-dry cord would be borderline if it does hold. The gri-gri is stamped with a minimum diameter recomendation FOR A REASON! Hello!?!
cam out.
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jt512
Nov 17, 2005, 1:10 AM
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In reply to: jt 512, thanks for proving my point. As you state "That's the way it's supposed to be done. The mistake is not quickly getting the brake hand back onto the brake side of the rope. " The design of the unit makes the belayer take their hand off the brake!! Duh!!
But doing so with a grigri is not inherently unsafe.
In reply to: And as for your claim that "With ropes less than 10.2 mm, you can move a rope through a grigri faster than through an ATC", well, bull#$%.
So, what, I'm a liar? Well, fuck you. Yes, I can move a thin rope through a grigri faster than through an ATC. Anyone can with proper instruction, maybe even you. The rope is not bent as sharply going through a grigri; therefore there is less friction (with a thin rope), allowing a proficient user to pull the rope through faster.
-Jay
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jt512
Nov 17, 2005, 1:17 AM
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In reply to: As I said, a competent belayer CAN give a very safe belay with a Gri-Gri. But contrary to the belief that the auto-locking design makes the Gri-Gri safer, I believe that the more complicated design and operation of the Gri-Gri (compared to a tube) makes operator error more likely.
You're absolutely correct, but the conclusion you draw from this in other posts, that the grigri is less safe, is wrong. A well-trained belayer with a grigri is safer in most situations than an equally well-trained belayer with an ATC, because, properly used, it is almost impossible for the belayer to lose control of the belay using a grigri. Look, the belayer could die from a heart attack and not lose control of the belay with a grigri. How much safer do you think you can get? But the grigri is more complicated, and thus requires greater instruction and practice than an ATC-style device. The answer to the problem of grigri accidents is therefore not, don't use grigris, as you have contended, but rather, provide sufficient instruction and practice with the device.
Jay
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jt512
Nov 17, 2005, 1:26 AM
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In reply to: I think your girlfriend MUST have had her hand squeezing the gri gri, or your rope is much thinner than you think, or maybe it's a dry treat. We recently got a 9.8 dry treat rope and sent it back cause the gri gri would not catch on it.
Aimee, I have difficulty believing that the grigri wouldn't catch with a dry 9.8. I regularly use the grigri using a dry Beal (which are thinner than their official diameters) 9.4, and have no trouble catching falls. How did you test the grigri with the 9.8? A slow fall could fail to actuate the cam if your had were not also on the brake side of the rope. In my experience, as long as a hand is holding the brake side of the rope, the grigri will work.
Jay
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