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chromwells_head


Dec 1, 2005, 4:28 AM
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Maybe its a fauxpax but i don't belay off the anchors, never have, i belay from my harness through the anchors, and fail to see how a leader fall would impact the anchors unless they were near or below the level of said belay device in my ten years of experience i have seen, and taken plenty of falls, and from what Ive seen the majority of the force is directed to the top piece and the rope. Ive never been lifted when belaying so I'm skeptical at best with that theory. and if your at or above your belay anchor, perhaps you should re think your stance?? JMHO


dangle


Dec 1, 2005, 5:37 PM
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I think its often a faux pax if you DO belay off the anchors. The belayer's mass can act as a shock absorber.
In the case above the fall was 20 meters with a factor of about 1.1-1.2 with Scott winding up just below me. I belayed with a plate which apparently didn't slip at all which explains both the rope damage and the "lift".


tradklime


Dec 1, 2005, 5:59 PM
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In reply to:
One thing that has not been pointed out is that bolts with hangers can be semi-directional. They MIGHT be weaker if the hanger levers. This is just another reason I like drilled angles. They are more multidirectional (but are "hard" to place in granite).

Drilled angles are good for forces that are perpendicular to their placement, but what about parallel, ie. a pull straight out?

I guess it's a question of "weaker than what"? Perhaps bolts are weaker in some directions than others, but strong enough? Usually stronger than a drilled angle in a straight out pull.


hosebeats


Dec 1, 2005, 6:24 PM
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While I was studying self-rescue prior to my first multipitch adventure I asked a AMGA certified guide friend of mine a tough question. Say while belaying a leader he falls and becomes injured. The only solution is to escape the belay and rappel using another rope. If you unwieght the anchor he will fall another few feet, which in my hypothetical situation was going to be very, very bad for the leader.

Assuming the anchor will hold the upwards pull once I am disengaged from the system what is to keep the leader from falling another 2-5ft? (depending on how big and high your anchor is set) The best thing I could come up with at the time was a single nut placement for the upwards pull clipped to the belayers harness and then also to the belay device. (This is assuming that the belayer is belaying off the harness, which seems to be most cases while belaying a leader.) If the belayer needs to escape the system he can unclip from the upward pulling nut and allow the belay device to take the load after it has been muled off. This stops the leader from falling any further and aggravating any injuries.

It seems to work in theory but once we got up on our first few pitches we realized that there were no places for gear anyway. I know the scenario is pretty out there but I figure it has had to have happened some time. Anyone have a better suggestion?


jorgegonzalez


Dec 1, 2005, 6:59 PM
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Largo,

I am generally not a real opinionated person when it comes to questions which really can go either way. However, being probably one of the few active climbers who weighs more than you ("weigh" over 200), and who often climbs with people who weigh significantly less, I must say that this is a question of judgment based on various factors, the first of which is the weight of the leader relative to the belayer. While there shouldn't be a hard and fast rule (meaning "always") I would say that one should be thinking about the possibilities, and if the belayer can be lifted up by a fall, possibly imperiling the belay anchor, then why wouldn't someone who purports to be a safe climber not design a belay anchor to protect for an upward pull.

I was dropped about 30 feet once, falling within 10 feet of the ground, because my belayer put out enough rope so he could sit on a log 15 ft. from the rock (Winter Solstice, Suicide). I didn't see him do it, and he had no idea the amount of force that would be generated by my fall. You learn from those lessons, and lucky for me, no one was injured. But I say, better safe than sorry.

jg


dingus


Dec 1, 2005, 7:21 PM
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Climbing anchors are analog, not digital. Its always shades of gray.

NE Buttress of Higher Cathedral, the crux thin crack coming out of the pod belay above the chimneys...

Dog is leading, Angus belaying, both strong climbers with the leader weighing perhaps 20 lbs more than the belayer. No helmets of course, this was a while back.

Anyway, dog is the dude who removed the 5.8 flakes from the variation of that pitch, when they peeled under his careful ministrations. Subsequent reports suggest that 5.8 variation is more like 5.10 now, lol.

Anyway, Angus didn't protect himself from an upward pull, so rarely did he need to consider it. Dog had clipped one of the fixed pins above the pod annd that was his onnly pro for the +1 ff fall.

Angus had his bell rung so hard up into the roof of the pod he nearly lost consciousess. He got a mild concussion out of what could have been the end of my good friend dog.

Nice catch Angus!

He pays a bit more attention to upward pull consequences these days.

But climbing anchors are analog, not digital.

DMT


dangle


Dec 1, 2005, 9:04 PM
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Dingus!
Good to hear your "voice".
Agreed on anchors, but so much more of life is analog. Why does politics have to be so polarizing? Must be human nature.

tradklime,
the old joke goes that the patient says, "Doctor. It hurts when I do this."
The doctor responds, "So don't DO this."

Admittedly drilled angles might not do well with outward pull but I for one have never placed them straight up into a roof.
Don't DO this.

That said I once took a factor 1.5 eight meter fall onto a half inch angle driven halfway straight up under a flake and that little sucker did the job (although afterwards it came out with one hit!).
I don't know of any of my DAs pulling, but if you use them try to do so wisely.

On Taz Tower 2 of the 3 HAD to be used as footholds (unless you're Phil Gorden).





Hosebeats,
the counterbalance rappel, an AMGA guide who didn't know this?
The only solution is NOT rapping for help (although simultaneously you might be able to call for it). If your partner is injured so badly that lowering a bit will exascerbate things you need to go to him. Render first aid, and then get him to the base using the rope to hold his weight while he's on your back to keep him from contacting the rock while descending.
Using the mule knot for loading and release it is possible to execute multiple rappels in this manner.

It truly surprises me that many experienced climbers don't have a clue to this tactic. That you have found an AMGA certified guide unfamiliar with it makes me suspect a mountebank rather than mountaineer. Would you care to divulge more details?

Please don't ask me for the same though. This is not something one should learn online (as opposed to learning ABOUT). Try a bonafide AMGA course. Its no exageration to say that one of these could be a real lifesaver.


hosebeats


Dec 1, 2005, 9:15 PM
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You misread a bit. This was all a big "what if" question. If you have to rap and get help, if he can't be lowered, blah blah. He's a smart guy and all and knows his stuff. I was just posing a very (ignorant, i was much more noobish at the time) specific question. My partner and I went over rescue a bunch of times using a pullup bar and various points throught the house for anchors and hanging belays.


I guess my original post was kind of off topic and rather random. The solution seemed to answer the question I had read into the previous posts. I'd rather put the upwards pull piece directly on the belay device rather than the power point. The upwards piece is probably not going to get equalized anyway and it creates a more direct line to the rock. I tend to think in straight lines and get confused when there are too many things clipped into a single point. This way it's easy to recognize what I've done and what's attatched to what. I guess that's what my original rambling post was trying to say.


dangle


Dec 1, 2005, 9:21 PM
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Sorry, my fault. Using a pullup bar to rehearse a counterbalance rappel sounds useful but it might be like riding a jap bike.
You might have to explain things to the neighbors...










or not....


tradklime


Dec 1, 2005, 9:37 PM
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In reply to:
Admittedly drilled angles might not do well with outward pull but I for one have never placed them straight up into a roof.
Don't DO this.
Certainly agree with that.

What I tried to imply, unsuccessfully, is that, generally speaking, the load on the anchor is rarely perfectly perpendicular to the wall, or to the direction in which the anchor was placed. With drilled angles in particular, because they are usually placed angled against the anticipated direction of pull, are not optmized for an upward pull. How much this matters is debatable, and is likely not consistent between drilled angle placements.

That said, I would argue that bolts will generally perform better with an outward pull than a drilled angle. I would also argue that the majority of loads placed on anchors will involve a component of outward pull, ie. won't be perfectly perpendicular to the way the anchor bolt or piton is placed. Therefore, I would argue that bolts make for better truely multidirectional anchors than drilled angles, because it is very difficult to accurately anticipate how the anchor will be loaded if/ when the belayer is dislodged from their stance.

Just an opinion that would need extensive testing to corroborate... as I suppose most opinions expressed in this thread are. :)


dangle


Dec 1, 2005, 10:30 PM
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Some tests are more informative than others.

Once a nameless climber wanted to "prove" that DAs were bogus so he used a dropped weight to shock load a DA that he had placed very poorly by overdriving it into the wrong size hole causing radiating fractures. After it failed he claimed with authority that HIS extensive testing had proved his point.



The trouble is that in soft rock the hole tends to flare just from drill wobble. Thats why standard bolts are undesireable.
Oh yeah they might be tight in the back of the hole and be fine for YOUR first ascent, but over time the wobble can worsen. Also water can get in the placement further degrading it.
On the other hand a DA actually exploits the tendency of a hole to flare. In fact I generally use multiple bit sizes! I explained this technique to Alex McAfee once and he not only got it wrong but published his error telling people to ream a hole with a larger bit.
Bad idea. It tends to bind.
I start big then step down.
(There's a hell of a lot more to it though.)
BTW Alex is not the nameless climber, but IS one who's ripped off my ideas without permission, credit or compensation.

Only ONE of the other steps is sealing the placement against water since it can combine with carbon dioxide in the air to form carbolic acid that can actually dissolve the rock!


The dangle drilled angle is close to an art form so its no surprise that items seen as only requiring a cookbook formulas are touted by those less committed to the durability of the routes they create.


slobmonster


Dec 1, 2005, 10:59 PM
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In reply to:
The dangle drilled angle is close to an art form
My mother would say that the entirety of the above post is a "piece of work."


Partner philbox
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Dec 1, 2005, 11:08 PM
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At the risk of taking this thread out beyond the crab nebulae.

In soft rock I reckon the ideal placement is glue in ring bolts. The glue needs to be two pack epoxy and not that polyester rubbish. Of course this precludes any climbing on the placement until 24 hours after gluing so ground up ascents are somewhat problematic.

I like the idea of the drilled angles for FFAs though. The tapered hole idea is awesome. Thanks dangle.


tradklime


Dec 1, 2005, 11:46 PM
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The dangle drilled angle is close to an art form...

Well I don't doubt that. It doesn't seem to address the outward pull issue though.

Fixed pro in soft rock is always tricky. Phillbox really identified the ultimate solution, but as he mentioned, it's not always practical. The modern bolts seem to do well in the windgate of Indian Creek. With rock that has a quickly eroding surface, drilled angles are probably best, but I wouldn't count on them to be multi-directional, and are probably best described as the least dubious option (assuming you only pull down on them).

Previously, you mentioned drilled angles in granite. I'd take a good bolt anyday.


dangle


Dec 1, 2005, 11:48 PM
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Waiting 24 hours? Hmmm.
I'm slow enough already.

Tell me you don't like the DA idea for first "free" ascents because of the "foot hold" potential. (Not sure but you guys down under sometimes seem a bit, well,....different.) Was it a typo? Perhaps you meant only one F?


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Dec 2, 2005, 12:13 AM
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Waiting 24 hours? Hmmm.
I'm slow enough already.

Tell me you don't like the DA idea for first "free" ascents because of the "foot hold" potential. (Not sure but you guys down under sometimes seem a bit, well,....different.) Was it a typo? Perhaps you meant only one F?

Nah, FFAs are valued more highly than FAs so generally the FFA will be accomplished as soon as possible or in preference of an FA. Also pro as footholds are pretty much verbotten when it comes to FFAing.

In lieu of drilled angles we use carrots which are ground down bolts which end up looking like a, well, carrot. The carrot is bashed in sans hanger. There are an awful lot of first ascents put up using this method on lead. I went to a climbing area recently, Girraween, where there are huge long granite slab routes, way steep and crystally. Those routes see only one carrot in the middle of the pitch. Way scary. Think pro 25 metres apart. Pucker factor extreme.

Of course if I am putting up any sort of aid climb then anything goes and I would be looking for manufactured footholds and then naturally I will be seeking to put up the FA as opposed to the FFA. The FFA can wait for the hardmen to come along and tick.


dangle


Dec 2, 2005, 12:21 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The dangle drilled angle is close to an art form...

Well I don't doubt that. It doesn't seem to address the outward pull issue though.

Fixed pro in soft rock is always tricky. Phillbox really identified the ultimate solution, but as he mentioned, it's not always practical. The modern bolts seem to do well in the windgate of Indian Creek. With rock that has a quickly eroding surface, drilled angles are probably best, but I wouldn't count on them to be multi-directional, and are probably best described as the least dubious option (assuming you only pull down on them).

Previously, you mentioned drilled angles in granite. I'd take a good bolt anyday.


Actually I did address the outward pull issue. I said avoid it. I also related an anecdote where the same size angle only half inserted held a substantial "outward" pull.
And while I try not to overdrive they ARE driven in pretty well AND GLUED.


In addition you made an erroneous assumption stating that Wingate has a quickly eroding surface. Once in R&I Ken Trout suggested overdrilling so that DAs could be redriven when the surface erodes, but actually short of artificial forces this is unlikely as the bulk of the mass wasting of most Wingate and Navaho sandstone occurs during cathartic events.
Ever notice how the S faces (NOT down under) are usually the steepest?
The greater diurnal temperature fluctuation results in more refreezing and causes the underlying Chinle and other rock to break up and move faster. This undermines the rock walls which, prone to vertical jointing, then collapse.

Philbox did NOT offer the ultimate solution because he didn't address hole flare from drill wobble.

Lastly I said DAs are hard to place in granite and you missed the pun. Do you really think.....oh never mind.


Partner cracklover


Dec 2, 2005, 12:35 AM
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Hey JL,

Just saw this thread. Glad to see you cared enough to respond to my post after they locked down that thread.

So yeah - that's me you quoted, but I think pretty much everything I would have said, has already been said. (And most likely, more eloquently!)

I just think that if you still strongly believe that an upward pull piece is important, even *most* of the time, you owe it to your readers to answer those arguments that say otherwise. Kudos to you for doing your homework.

Cheers, and good luck with the new edition!

GO


Partner philbox
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Dec 2, 2005, 12:35 AM
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Ah yes, the dreaded hole flare from drill wobble. Second time I`ve been caught by that one this week [/Maxwell Smart voice].

The two pack epoxy glue that I use in porous sandstone type rock can be used in any shape hole. It is viscous enough to weep into the surrounding substrate that is why I avoid like the plague the polyester glues. The two pack is definitely the way to go. The key here is that we are trying to create anchors and fixed pro that will stand the test of time. The two pack epoxy totally precludes any form of moisture contaminating the hole. I cannot say the same for the slightly porous polyester glues.

In fact the more uneven the hole is then the better the glue will hold. Of course the shafts of the bolts should be fully threaded to create the best key for the glue to hold on to. This was confiirmed by Steve Hawkshaw as part of his engineering thesis. Link to the PDF document can be had from this page. http://www.chockstone.org/...SandstoneBolting.htm

Oh yes, by the way Us are better than rings.

I hang my head in shame at hijacking this topic out to the outer limits of the Milky Way and way beyond the Greater Magellanic Cloud.


dangle


Dec 2, 2005, 12:48 AM
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Nah, FFAs are valued more highly than FAs so generally the FFA will be accomplished as soon as possible or in preference of an FA.



So you can free something before you even climb it?
Don't you mean FAFs are valued more highly than FAs.



Also, I've heard of carrot or stick motivation, but you guys down there have carrot or crater motivation. Ever read Verm's account of his first trip down under? Something about that title....




But your info on glues, even if from outer space, sounds like very useful stuff.

But I've been placing them without any awareness of polyester for 3 decades so, to quote Maxwell Smart, "NOW you tell me."
(I'll call you for more details on my shoe.)


tradklime


Dec 2, 2005, 4:55 AM
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In reply to:
Actually I did address the outward pull issue. I said avoid it. I also related an anecdote where the same size angle only half inserted held a substantial "outward" pull.
And while I try not to overdrive they ARE driven in pretty well AND GLUED.
Somehow I missed the outward pull part in your anecdote. And my point is that it is generally difficult to avoid the outward pull. But I get your point on the glue. Do you cut serrations into the angles? Angles don't exert an expansion force in the way expansion bolts do, so there is an inherent disadvantage.

In reply to:
In addition you made an erroneous assumption stating that Wingate has a quickly eroding surface.
No, I guess I just wasn't clear. I intended to express that I think bolts do well enough in wingate. Implied, of course, due to the rather hard surface layer, that mitigates the drill wobble and surface erosion.

Now opposed to that is rock with a soft/ erodable surface. This is the substrate where drilled angles really seem to shine above other alternatives.

In reply to:
Once in R&I Ken Trout suggested overdrilling so that DAs could be redriven when the surface erodes, but actually short of artificial forces this is unlikely as the bulk of the mass wasting of most Wingate and Navaho sandstone occurs during cathartic events.
I get the Wingate characteristics well enough. I think Ken's idea would be good for rock with a surface that does easily erode. I'm sure you're familiar with fixed pro where the surface has eroded around it and left it protruding. Or, where spinning bolt hangers have worn deep grooves. Myself, I've at least seen pictures.

In reply to:
Philbox did NOT offer the ultimate solution because he didn't address hole flare from drill wobble.
Well he already addressed that.

In reply to:
Lastly I said DAs are hard to place in granite and you missed the pun. Do you really think.....oh never mind.
Unfortunately, your pun was over my head, as I'm sure so is your climbing. I actually recall coming across a drilled angle or two in granite, and limestone for that matter. They seem to work well enough, but don't seem to offer any advantage in my mind, installation or performance, over a bolt in the same circumstance. But as I said, your pun was over me head.


Partner philbox
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Dec 2, 2005, 5:09 AM
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So you can free something before you even climb it?
Don't you mean FAFs are valued more highly than FAs.

Hmmm, seems to me a problem with definitions.

FA First ascent, in our parlance does not equate with having freed the route. It may be that the first ascentist used aid to get themselves to the top.

FFA = First Free Ascent, this is the holy grail of style and muchly sort after.


In reply to:
Also, I've heard of carrot or stick motivation, but you guys down there have carrot or crater motivation. Ever read Verm's account of his first trip down under? Something about that title....

Oooooh, no, I`ve not read that, any URLs you can point me to.


In reply to:
But your info on glues, even if from outer space, sounds like very useful stuff.

But I've been placing them without any awareness of polyester for 3 decades so, to quote Maxwell Smart, "NOW you tell me."
(I'll call you for more details on my shoe.)

Should we use the cone of silence for that conversation, gotta make sure Craw doesn`t hear us. :lol:

What I would like to know from your side of the pond is any info in relation to freeze thaw cycling on fixed pro placements. I don`t have any experience in that regard as for all intents and purposes I have not encountered freezing of rock with ice associated.

I would imagine that excluding any moisture from freezing around a bolt or piton would be an advantage which two pack epoxy could give. But as I said I have no evidence to support such a theory merely my own hypothesis.


dangle


Dec 2, 2005, 2:30 PM
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Already apologized to John for the hijack (well intentioned) so WTH. He's already started another and I tried harder to play ball.

FAF; doing a first ascent without aid. (Think this is your "Holy Grail")

Phil,
would like more info on this polyester thing, but although I try to seal out the water to avoid chemical weathering, I suspect freezing does little good either.

Is it just me or is 99 hot? Do you think her number means she likes it doggie style? Ok by me. I like jug holds.


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Dec 5, 2005, 10:08 PM
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Dangle, I use a cartridge gun for my gluing. The polyester glue is a single pack type glue that air cures. The two pack epoxy has a double plunger with a tortuous path nozzle which mixes the two parts. The polyester has a lot of air mixed in with it and it will be quite permeable to water. The two pack epoxy cures like glass. The two pack is also around twice as strong as the polyester. As I stated earlier the two pack being quite viscous will somewhat migrate into porous rock creating a much much stronger bond.

The bolts, rings or Us should be fully threaded to create as large a surface area as possible for the glue to bond.


dangle


Dec 6, 2005, 1:05 AM
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If I'm not on lead while placing a drilled angle then its generally easier to mess with mixing components. I've had problems with those dual syringe type applicators clogging, and if you squirt right into the hole its difficult to get the spooge mixed up (plus I add drill dust to create a "mortar").

I'm not sure that the windshield sealer that I liked to use (made to bond to silica, which is mostly what sandstone is) is all that water permeable. At least not very quickly (and it usually doesn't rain long in the desert, and if it IS a slow soaker then the rock ITSELF absorbs water). If the stuff has air in it then isn't it in bubbles? How can the water pass bubble to bubble? The sealer when hardened seems to be pretty water resistant.

I hope to if possible make my bolts even MORE reliable and durable. But does anyone have any anecdotal evidence of any of mine placed 20 or even 30 years ago no longer passing muster?

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