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fire_or_retire
Dec 16, 2005, 12:21 AM
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I've been looking at getting a second rope for double rope raps and was wondering if it's safe to use a thin static in the range of 8mm? Does anyone use these? I want to save money and weight.
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112
Dec 16, 2005, 1:00 AM
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For sure you can and it is totally safe. Prolly best to always use some type of backup (prussik). Ensure you set it up to pull the thinner line, so the knot is jammed against the anchor rather than pulled away from it.
My question is how thin is too thin, for rapelling? (other threads mention 4 mm single line)?
And, how big a mismatch between diameters is too great? If there is such a thing.
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arrow
Dec 16, 2005, 2:15 AM
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In the July 2005 Tech Tip article in Climbing magazine there's a suggestion of carrying a 7mm static 65m line for retreating (while cleaning your pro). I've never tried it but it's not a bad idea.
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misanthropic_nihilist
Dec 16, 2005, 2:56 AM
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As long as you're going with jamming a knot on a carabiner at the anchor, you might as well make the second rope (more like cord) 2mm: just strong enough to pull your main rope down. Just rappel down on the single rope and use the cord to pull the main rope down. You can still rap a full rope length.
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rckymntneer
Dec 16, 2005, 4:25 AM
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If you are gonna haul the weight of two rope up anyhow, I'd rather shell out the money for a second dynamic rope. If something happens to the first, it's nice to have another that will work for leading.
I've never rapped with one dynamic and one static rope. If you are on a long rap, wouldn't the extra stretch in one rope make the process a little hinky? I supposed it would still work fine... anyone tried it?
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omegaprime
Dec 16, 2005, 6:40 AM
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In reply to: As long as you're going with jamming a knot on a carabiner at the anchor, you might as well make the second rope (more like cord) 2mm: just strong enough to pull your main rope down. Just rappel down on the single rope and use the cord to pull the main rope down. You can still rap a full rope length.
Question: Have you ever tried pulling a 60m dynamic rope through the rap rings using a 2mm static rope?
Just wondering, cos this is the first time I've heard of this. I imagine that that would be quite difficult to pull the rope down, but then again I've never done it myself.
I think the convention is using 7mm and above diameter static rope, connected using EDK, DF or whatever you consider acceptable, and rapping off using both ropes through your belay device. There's a number of things that could go wrong with the setup you're proposing, and I'm sure anyone could think of a few if you give it some thought.
Check out this thread on rapping with different diameter ropes.
I'm thinking of getting a 7mm static line myself for rapping, mostly due to the cost difference between static and dynamic. And I'm not going to rap off just the dynamic rope. :wink:
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moose_droppings
Dec 16, 2005, 7:49 AM
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In reply to: As long as you're going with jamming a knot on a carabiner at the anchor, you might as well make the second rope (more like cord) 2mm: just strong enough to pull your main rope down. Just rappel down on the single rope and use the cord to pull the main rope down. You can still rap a full rope length |
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skinner
Dec 16, 2005, 7:50 AM
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I've used a 7mm static for years.
Any smaller and it becomes a pain to handle, and sometime a b*tch to pull when it wraps itself around your larger rope creating prussik-like friction in the process.
7mm is small enough that there is worthwhile weigh saving, yet large enough to still be a useful/manageable line IMO.
Go buy a 450' spool and split it up with a couple of your buddies, and you end up with a zipline for yourself really cheap :wink:
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getsomeethics
Dec 16, 2005, 8:18 AM
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I use this method a lot when you don't actually need two ropes to lead cos the route wanders, but you need to do 30m+ raps.
I use 4mm, which streches like crazy and kills yer hands as you pull. when it has seen its last rap i will be going to a thicker line!!! a little scary too as you pull it over edges.
i dont coil it or trail it either. i got the smallest stuff sack i could, stitched a loop in the inside of the sack at the bottom and tied the 4mm to it. then loosely stuffed the rest in. hooks onto the back of the harness and you can hardly tell it is there.
joining the ropes depends on the anchor but most times i thread the lead line through the anchor point(s) and make a loose multiple overhand knot and ensure it is large enough that it wont pull through the hanger, ring, etc. before tightening it up i do the same to the 4mm line and feed it through the centre of the lead line knot, then cinch the lead line knot tight. ready to rap.
instead of then chuckin the bag of 4mm off and hoping for the best i clip the bag to a front gear loop and let it pull out as i rap. always works well and then if it does jam it is right there, not blowing in the wind.
rapped dowm cadot crack this spring in jasper NP with this method and had no problems.
tf
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skinner
Dec 16, 2005, 11:09 AM
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In reply to: instead of then chuckin the bag of 4mm off and hoping for the best i clip the bag to a front gear loop and let it pull out as i rap. always works well and then if it does jam it is right there, not blowing in the wind. rapped dowm cadot crack this spring in jasper NP with this method and had no problems. tf
That's a great idea for managing small line like that, I like it!
(Mind you I also like my *beefy-by-comparison* 7mm)
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euroford
Dec 16, 2005, 3:01 PM
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i use 60m of 7mm bluewater line. it only weighs about 2.5 pounds and is infinity more usefull and less problematic than the uber skinny suggestions.
as well as being a rap line, it also does duty as a trailline if you need to pass anything to the leader, a haul line if you need to get some packs up, it can be chopped up for another cordolette if you drop/forget one and of course it can be chopped up for threading rap anchors/v-threads.
oh yeah, and strong enough that no crazy antics are required and cheap enough that purchasing it was a low stress decision :)
my alpine rope combination of a 9.8mm lead line and a 7mm rap/haul line is even by my figuring lighter than most doubles, and lighter than some twins.
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microbarn
Dec 16, 2005, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: As long as you're going with jamming a knot on a carabiner at the anchor, you might as well make the second rope (more like cord) 2mm: just strong enough to pull your main rope down. Just rappel down on the single rope and use the cord to pull the main rope down. You can still rap a full rope length.
If there is a jam, I wouldn't feel comfortable ascending the 2mm line. Do standard ascenders even work on a 2mm?
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sspssp
Dec 16, 2005, 5:18 PM
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I've tried various configurations of this. If you are going to go as big as 8mm, I would recommend a dynamic because it gives you a second lead line if things go wrong.
A dynamic cost more than a static. But if you are only using it for rapping and possible emergency use if something happens to your regular lead line, you can use it a long time.
I've gone as small as the 5.5mm speciality cords (like Titan). It is stronger than pure nylon, can't think off the top of my head whether it is spectra or something else.
I found pulling the 5.5mm too much of a pain in the ass. Pulling a skinny line down while the fat line goes up can be pretty difficult. The approach I like better (and one that I am sure would never be endorsed by figures of Authority who go around endorsing such matters--so there is you disclaimer!) is:
Tie both ropes to the anchor. First one down raps the single (main line) trailing the 5.5. After the first is down, the second ties the ropes together with the knot on the main line side. The first one down ties the 5.5 to either himself or the anchor. The second one raps just the main line (since the knot is on the main line side, you have to rely on the integrity of the 5.5). Once the second is down, you can now pull the main line down which is a breeze (since you have a fat rope to grab a hold of and you are pulling the light 5.5 up).
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sspssp
Dec 16, 2005, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: i use 60m of 7mm bluewater line. it only weighs about 2.5 pounds and is infinity more usefull and less problematic than the uber skinny suggestions. as well as being a rap line, it also does duty as a trailline if you need to pass anything to the leader, a haul line if you need to get some packs up, it can be chopped up for another cordolette if you drop/forget one and of course it can be chopped up for threading rap anchors/v-threads. oh yeah, and strong enough that no crazy antics are required and cheap enough that purchasing it was a low stress decision :) my alpine rope combination of a 9.8mm lead line and a 7mm rap/haul line is even by my figuring lighter than most doubles, and lighter than some twins.
I've used a similar setup before and for some situations, I would say it is very good. However, if you have a situation where you don't really think you are going to need to do a two rope rap but you would like to keep the option open, 2.5 pounds is a lot of weight (my partner and I could add two emergcy down sleeping bags for 2.5 pounds). So when I'm not expecting to rap, I'll shave the weight further down and live with the crazy antics if the situation arises.
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greenketch
Dec 16, 2005, 5:40 PM
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wurd on Getsomethics suggestion of the stuff sack. I use a 6mm static often as a pull line for raps. I use my pack for the same purpose as the bag. But I only had to toss that 6mm once in a wind to realize what a challenge that is. And yes there is a stretch differance. The stopper on the 6mm will hit your device well before the main one does if the rap is a rope stretcher. But, look at it as redundant saftey if that small line stops you short you can't make it to the end of the main line to fall off.
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drkayak
Dec 16, 2005, 7:09 PM
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I have been using a 6mm static for many years. It packs very nicely into a small fanny pack. My partner has a 7mm and it is much bigger to pack.
As other have said: the greater the weight difference the harder it is to pull the rap line. Gloves help. I have never had a rap that I could not get the line to pull using a 6mm. But.. it is much slower than rapping on a light pair of doubles. On a local grade IV that takes 8 60m raps to get down I have cut rap time in half using 8.1mm doubles over a 10mm lead w/6mm zip.
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getsomeethics
Dec 16, 2005, 7:24 PM
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that i find is the one drawback for the system is that on multiple raps it is a little slower.
only once did i decide not to repack the 4mm into the stuff sack before the next rap. major pain in the ass. add some wind and you have insta-rat-nest.
once saw someone toss a whole 65m coil of 4-6mm off a route in a good wind. funny for me, bad for them and for the party two routes over!
tf
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euroford
Dec 16, 2005, 7:41 PM
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In reply to: I've used a similar setup before and for some situations, I would say it is very good. However, if you have a situation where you don't really think you are going to need to do a two rope rap but you would like to keep the option open, 2.5 pounds is a lot of weight (my partner and I could add two emergcy down sleeping bags for 2.5 pounds). So when I'm not expecting to rap, I'll shave the weight further down and live with the crazy antics if the situation arises.
i agree, what i describe is for situations where you know you'll need double rope raps, but want to lead on a single. I would either decide Yes, i want double rope raps, and use this system or, No i don't and if i must then leave a couple nuts for an intermediate anchor so be it.
a couple of nuts definily costs less than any length of useless skinny cord.
so okay, you want to use a 3mm 'pull cord' and rig your rap like in the Petzl manual. what happens when your rig jambs (very likely) while pulling the rope? you gunna prussic up a 3mm cord? hello Darwin Award....
not to mention that a cord that thin isn't usefull for anything else, okay maybe guying out a tent....
IMO:
If you need to do 60m raps, or would like to if possable. use a single lead line and a 6 or 7mm rap line/haul line (remeber its multitasker).
If you think its very likely that you can get away with 30m raps just climb on a single lead line, and if you get into a tough spot leave a couple of nuts and a piece of your cordolette. nuts are cheap and leaving bail gear is just part of (the climbing) life.
if you dig on doubles or twins, 60m raps are part of the package.
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sspssp
Dec 17, 2005, 12:07 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I've used a similar setup before and for some situations... so okay, you want to use a 3mm 'pull cord' and rig your rap like in the Petzl manual. what happens when your rig jambs (very likely) while pulling the rope? you gunna prussic up a 3mm cord? hello Darwin Award....
Well, I wouldn't go all the way down to a 3mm. But if you read my post right above the one you quote, I will use a 5.5mm (which is much less than 2.5 pounds). However, I pull the lead line down and the 5.5mm up. This is extremely easy (this pulls easier, than say, two 8.8s) and if something jams, I have however much of the lead line to lead on back up, cut a chunk off and keep rapping, or, gulp, prussic back up the jammed line.
However, the second in my setup raps just the main line and the main line is only held in place by the 5.5mm. So you have to trust the first one down to have secured the 5.5 and you have to trust the integrity of the 5.5 line itself.
I have also used this setup with a 6mm.
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euroford
Dec 17, 2005, 3:27 AM
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In reply to: However, the second in my setup raps just the main line and the main line is only held in place by the 5.5mm. So you have to trust the first one down to have secured the 5.5 and you have to trust the integrity of the 5.5 line itself. I have also used this setup with a 6mm.
alright, i follow you on that, i'm just not about to trust rapping with rap load on something that skinny. when rigged per Petzl's manual, you rap on the thick line and pull with the thin line, that what i thought you'd be doing with an uber skinny line.
i rap on both lines, but pull the 7mm, so in case of a failure of the thin line the rap knot can jamb in the rap ring and likely hold the lead line. this doesn't require any fancy rigging, just a simple EDK knot, to hopefully avoid jambing the knot when pulling.
your just not going to catch me trusting anything less than 7mm for bodyweight+bouncing, especially with the thin line rubbing around on the typically nasty descent gully rock.
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norushnomore
Dec 17, 2005, 1:03 PM
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I have been using this line
http://www.neropes.com/climbing/tech_cord_specs.htm
for the past season (many multipitch and long sing pitch raps) and it worked very well.
It's very compact fitting into camelbag but safe over the edges and strong enough to rap on along if main rope gets stuck
Another surprise: pulling down it was getting stuck less then my main rope (maybe because it is rather stiff) and it was just fine in the wind
(it is not that light for a 5mm).
I have also rapped alternating ends (skinny or fat line going thru the anchors) with no problems
Only one negative so far: expensive.
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crimpstrength
Oct 15, 2006, 11:53 PM
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I got the "this is a pretty old thread" message and am sure I want to reply. This thread came up in a search I did so please don't waste your time telling me to do a search.
Situation:
Party of 3 on multipitch needs to do a full rope length (double rope) rap. The leader and second are on a 10.5, dynamic obviously, and the third is on a smaller dynamic (or static). Can we do a double rope rap with these two - an EDK, putting the knot on the side of the chains with the smaller rope?
Thanks in advance for your help
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stymingersfink
Oct 16, 2006, 12:02 AM
Post #23 of 32
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yes. see rapping with dif. diameter ropes here
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coolklimber
Oct 16, 2006, 4:27 AM
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I would go with a thicker line, mostly because you could be rapping off of and down just about anything. So you might want a rope that can take some abuse, although you will have to sacrifice some weight.
>Cam
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nkane
Mar 11, 2008, 10:19 PM
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Now I realize this is an old thread, but I found it through a search and it seems relevant.
My question is this: What is your strategy for bringing up the tag line? Do you tie it to the leader's harness? If so, is the second tied into it, or do you pull the whole tag line up after you've made your anchor?
Do you put it in a pack? Coil it backpack-style and make the second carry it?
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