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Using Fifi hooks for trad question.
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androids


Dec 21, 2005, 2:32 AM
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Re: Using Fifi hooks for trad question. [In reply to]
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grappling hooks or hooks of anykind generaly will not hold a fall of more than a few inches, the hooks straighten under the exessive weight of a fall, use tri cams, and hammer a g'dam pin sheeesh! its alpine not sport climbing. fifi's dont usaully sit to well on rock unless youre caming them in a stein pull like manner, they will not hold a fall. i know from experience :?
i say use a pin.


Partner cracklover


Dec 21, 2005, 3:34 AM
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Re: Using Fifi hooks for trad question. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
grappling hooks or hooks of anykind generaly will not hold a fall of more than a few inches

I was just going to say the exact same thing. Take a look at the ratings on aid hooks. Typically on the order of a few kN. The real solution to your problem is to put one correctly sized pin (sorry, that means piton) in the middle of the traverse, and either suck it up or use aid hooks the rest of the way.

If you post a pic (put a ruler in the crack for scale) we can probably tell you what type of piton and/or what type of hook to use.

So you led it on fifi hooks huh? Wow.

GO


ryanb


Dec 21, 2005, 5:10 AM
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Re: Using Fifi hooks for trad question. [In reply to]
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Nail it!!!??? I call weak sauce!!! Things only 20 feet long and he's obviously able to climb it without nailing because he did.

Thats a proud asscent, my friend. It be bad enough if someone else nailed something you should be proud of don't do it yourself...

Who is it that said all the gear is mostly for show, real security comes from not falling?

I don't like to wear myself out placeing unnecesary gear. Some time the safest thing to do is to move quickley yet carefully placeing excelent gear when you can. Particularly this time of year in the mountains when changieng weather and lack of light are issues.

Oh and Fish makes some beefy hooks about the size of a fifi and much stronger.

What kind of rock is it on anyways?


welikoa


Dec 21, 2005, 5:21 AM
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Good old granite it is.


karlbaba


Dec 21, 2005, 6:15 AM
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Hard Aid climbers often use big "fish hooks" taped down with duct tape for pro.

Peace

Karl


joebuzz


Dec 22, 2005, 9:02 PM
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What about double rope technique. I know it's more of a Euro thing, but you did say there was a good hand crack after the traverse. Climb up to and through the traverse on one rope and then place solid pro and in the bottom of the "easy" hand crack and clip the second rope for the rest of the pitch which will avoid any "Z" or rope drag in your system.


healyje


Dec 22, 2005, 9:46 PM
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A picture with your hand or something recognizable in it for scale would definitely help with questions like this.

Doubled skyhooks will hold a fall and single skyhooks with a heavily pre-sliced aid screamer will hold one as well. But, as noted, a fish hook would be even better.

And btw, double ropes are in no way "euro", they are however very "trad" and more of an East coast thing seldom seen out West. They're also not something kids learn these days in gyms and on sport crags. But it wouldn't do anything "extra" to protect this traverse, only keep the rope drag down once you were climbing past it.


welikoa


Dec 23, 2005, 8:18 AM
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Heres some pictures some of you were asking for.

Just go to my profile and find werners wish pics. Thanks for the info guys.

2 inches deep at the best, mostly 1/2 to 1. All around you can only do fingertips, and I have skinny hands.


hosebeats


Dec 23, 2005, 8:37 AM
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Is that the backside of the Posion Oak crack boulder? Kind of looks like it. I've always wanted to give that thing a go.


Partner climbinginchico


Dec 23, 2005, 11:03 AM
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It's not that hard to post pics.

Here, I'll do it for you.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=66665

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=66666

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=66667

That crack looks like it could take opposed stoppers. I've used the locking girth hitch to tension opposed stoppers in situations almost identical to that. Give it a try sometime.


healyje


Dec 23, 2005, 11:21 AM
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Good job. I'd say small tri-cams, hooks in [loose] opposition on either side of the flake chunk the ruler is in, or a couple of small cams in the upward rise after the ruler. This may even be a case where rigid stemmed cams rigged East coast style with cord through the hole up by the cams would be way better than today's more "modern" cams.

You also haven't said how high the start of the traverse is off the ground and what you might hit if you came off after crossing it with no pro. Would you hit anything?


welikoa


Dec 23, 2005, 7:34 PM
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The first few feet you can get away with falling avoiding some small ankle twisters. But beyond that, your about 8-15 feet above with dangerous rock below. Yes this is behid poison oak crack too and super fun. My concern with the tri cams is size, the crack as you can see is than half an inch. Ive fit some aliens as ive mentioned before stemming them but are bad placements.
Its usually tr'd , but this is funner :)


Partner cracklover


Dec 23, 2005, 7:39 PM
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It looks like some of the lip of the flake is broken off - how'd that happen? Or is that just a lot of caked on chalk?

IME tricams are often junk (same as cams) in very slick rock that is parallel sided to flaring. But if you can find a good enough divot for the nose, you're golden (assuming you know how to place a tricam). Opposed nuts *might* work, too. Hard to tell from the pic.

Does anyone know the actual strength of a FISH hook? I haven't seen it published anywhere.

GO


welikoa


Dec 23, 2005, 8:21 PM
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THe othe thing to consider, is that im basically doing like a campus board pumping with my fingertips. When I go to place pro I really have little time to setup any complicated rigs or stuff like that. Thats whY ill do the tri cams because I can place them super quick before my one armed fingertip lockoff gives out haha.


hosebeats


Dec 23, 2005, 8:38 PM
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It would be a monster to stop and place something. You could always traverse in from the other side. No places for pro there but if you get pumped you could just hang upside down from your knees or climb into the huge onion skin flake thing. That would be pretty rad.


healyje


Dec 23, 2005, 9:11 PM
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The more I look at it I'd say, tri-cams placed with the tip away from you towards the rock or tied off rigid cams are definitely the way to go. I've dived on skyhooks, a fish hook would be plenty bomb - put an aid screamer on either if you're concerned. Good luck.


radistrad


Dec 23, 2005, 9:20 PM
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Fifi Hook:
The fifi hook is attached to the climber's harness and serves as an emergency or temporary method of clipping in to a piece of gear.
http://climb.mountainzone.com/glossary_a_l.html

Description of Black Diamond Fifi Hook:
The Black Diamond Fifi Hook is absolutely essential for any serious aid pitch. Clip your harness into your gear and focus on the next piece with this low-profile hook and sewn 15cm sling
http://akamai.backcountrystore.com.edgesuite.net/...s/medium/BLD0819.jpg


ryanb


Dec 23, 2005, 9:33 PM
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Nice rout man!

Be carefull slaming those tri-cams in...they ahve a bad habit of shakeing out.

If i was sitting there on the stance you took the photo from wearing my average rack (no hooks or tri-cams) I'd be wondering if that sticky upy portion of the flake was slingable (maybe with a longish sling and something heavy hung off of it so it wouldn't wiggle off... ).

Next I would be looking for places where the flake is a littel thiner at the lip then it is a ways back and figuring out ways to wiggle nuts or small cams in there in such a way that a fall would bend the stem/wire over the edge of the flake redirecting the force. Not the best to fall on as it could mess up your wire but better then nothing. You're gona need a place with an edge like that because aparently the crack is so greasy/chalked up that friction only cam placements aren't going to work? Make sure the edge is not goign to break or expand because if so your placement is bunk (i had one of these fail on a similar looking flake that pointed down a few months ago...the best test is to really hit it with your hand and see how solid it sounds)

I bet there is at least one or two good nut placents of this type on that thing but you are gona have to really study it to find them...it looks like the crack gets too thin to fit mutch of your finger in half way across...i would check there...

After that I would start looking for opposition placements (if it was less steep I might just do that off the bat but my endurance is not great).

If you are using trango cams instead of aliens aliens might open up a few options (they have a much more flexible stem designed to bend over edges and a diffrent shaped head) but there is probably a way to protect it with what you have.

All that said a rout like that is probably beyond my onsight or ground up ability in which case the thing to do is get on it on top rope and reherse the moves and the placements untill you are sure you can do it safely from a combination of excellently thought out protection and not falling. The brits do this alot on hard gritstone...i've even heard of people lowering off and bouncing on the placements that protect the crux before they comit to them.

Or you could just get a couple of fish hooks tied to long strings and have somebody on the ground pulling down on the strings to hold them in place.


healyje


Dec 23, 2005, 9:48 PM
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Ryan,

There's definitely no point slingable on the traverse. And anything but tied short rigid cams are going to a bad idea straight down in that crack. Tied down hooks 'ala Nichols' would be an option but I say just tape them in place and don't distract your belayer at that point. As for tricams shaking out - that means some combination of them being poorly slung and not "set" well. No pro of any kind suffers being slung poorly.


Partner cracklover


Dec 23, 2005, 11:03 PM
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In reply to:
And anything but tied short rigid cams are going to a bad idea straight down in that crack.

Forged friends with a "Gunks tie-off" (actually, I'd slide a sling all the way down to the base - like you'd do with a sticking out pin) seem like they'd work nicely - if they make 'em small enough! Not sure they do!

In reply to:
As for tricams shaking out - that means some combination of them being poorly slung and not "set" well. No pro of any kind suffers being slung poorly.

It looks pretty thin - I doubt it'll take a pink tricam.

GO


ryanb


Dec 23, 2005, 11:57 PM
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Oh come on healyje, you've probably got more experience with me but I know what gear of seen fail and what won't...

Provided you arange things so that the direction of pull on the functional part of the protection is correct (i.e. make damn sure the force required to bend the stem isn't in a direction that could lever the piece out) the only thing wrong with downward placed nuts and flexible stem cams is that it can tweek up the stem or wire if you weight them, bending the cable over the edge. (The cloth/metal sleave on an alien is designed in part to help this problem as are the plastic bits on some other cams).

As long as you don't cross load any of the solid metal bits (like where the stem ataches to the head or the 'biner used to atach the runner to the nut) it is still a reasonably safe placement though it may force a piece of gear into early retirement. In fact in the case of particularly sharp rock it is probably safer then running the thin nilon sling on a tri cam over the edge...the steal cable might kink but the chances of it breaking are slim unless you have an extremely small radius edge (which would esily cut the nilon sling on a tri-cam)

I have a pink tri cam with a partly cut sling if you want to see one...i've also got cams with kinked wires that did pull (a double stem model where the bending force was parralel to the axis of the lobes....a friend placed it...he's fine andl learned from his mistakes) and some camalots with f-d up plastic bits that bent but didn't pull or kink.

And I have slung things less secure looking than the protruding part of that flake. This would be a very directional slinging... and you need a long sling because the angle of the v formed by the front of the sling has to be sharp enough that the sling crosses the edge of the flake at an angle that won't let it slide up the horn. But assuming there is enough incut behind the flake (the ruler shows 2 inches) you ought to be able to work something out that is at least as secure as placeing two hooks in oposition like another user suggested for the same place and requires no hooks.

It is however a good ides to hang something heavy off the sling to hold it in place against rope shake (this is one of the few uses the larger cast tri cams are ideal for ;) ) Experiment with a slling and some random corners (books etc if you can't get to the crag) if you don't believe me. Those new skinney slings have got to be the most usefull piece of gear on the planet for strange shit like this.

That (and the fact it is a super positive edge to hang on to and a good hand jam to rest in at the end) is how i would protect the pitch. But maybe I am the only user on this site who likes to climb cracks without every piece of gear invented in the last 20 years pulling me down?


patto


Dec 24, 2005, 2:05 AM
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Looks like you would have no problems getting numerous nuts in there, by putting them in and them sliding them horizontally.

However whatever placement you do get I would also be worried about the rock. Remember that because of the way protection works the compression forces on the rock are several times larger than the tensile forces on the gear.


Partner cracklover


Dec 24, 2005, 5:15 AM
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In reply to:
Looks like you would have no problems getting numerous nuts in there, by putting them in and them sliding them horizontally.

However whatever placement you do get I would also be worried about the rock. Remember that because of the way protection works the compression forces on the rock are several times larger than the tensile forces on the gear.

Hmm, and small nuts behind a flake... can you say expando?

GO

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