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chalkfree


Dec 24, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Where's the concept of forgiveness? Is it all one has to do to accept jesus?

"For whomsoever shall believe in me shall not perish but shall ejnoy eternal life"

Or is this under qualification? Should it be

"Whoever believes in me and is good shall not perish"?

What if God's standards have gotten somewhat stricter in the two thousand years since this came to pass? Maybe Heaven is getting crowded and he's having to cull the herd as it were by letting only the best in.

All we've got to go on is version 1.0. 2000 years past it's issue date.

What's the criteria here, how good is good enough? Or is belief enough?
Where did you answer a question hotsu? Use your brain not the book. This isn't an open book exam.


hosebeats


Dec 24, 2005, 10:38 PM
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Kind of off topic, but does anyone here know anything about or read any of the Apocrypha? I once did some reading about it, but couldn't find a good explanation of why those books were removed from the Bible, and that's another (of the many) things that bug me about Christianity.

those books were removed from the bible because some of the stories told in them conveyed messages that the church wasn't comfortable with. they wanted their philosophy to seem more consistent.


lcc

Who are church leaders to dictate the teachings of the man himself? No earthly man can make that sort of decision just because they want their philosophy to feel more consistent. If you believe that the Bible is the word of God then that's it. Period. No wiggle room for what some church official feels comfortable with.

That is the kind of thinking that just drives me nuts. Picking and choosing your belief system while erasing and discrediting other viable legit sources and then criticizing other people for their belief structures. WTF gives? Is that not a double standard and I'm just hosed up?


shortfatoldguy


Dec 24, 2005, 11:46 PM
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Read Marx and Nietzsche and Paul Shepard and Adam Smith. As soon as we started staying in one place and stockpiling food, we enabled a division of labor. Hence, a class of priests. God bless their hearts.


swimming_dragon


Dec 25, 2005, 12:55 AM
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All these religions acknowledge something other than a single wholistic supreme deity, and these are just the a few of the major Indo-European religions. I don't know anything about the rest of the world, but I'm certain you'd find vast numbers of animistic and poly-theistic religions that totally lack a wholistic, world-encompassing divinity.

You are fundamentally and totally wrong in your assertion.

If you want to postulate that all these religions are secretly worshipping different aspects of a whole thing, you're quite welcome to, but be under no illusions that the people who lived these cultures would agree or think you anything other than offensive and silly.

That said, Merry Christmas.

I agree with much of what you are saying. Peoples the world over commune with spirits and powers that are culturally & often geographically specific. What you are arguing makes sense for your model of the world. I am not postulating that anyone is secretly worshipping anything.
The outward forms of ritualised communion with the transcendant reveal little to the observer.
You could attempt to describe to me your direct experience of a strong and loving connection with your partner, or your greatest moment of exhilaration in being alive, or your most profound experience of peace and tranquility in a wild and natural setting.
In attempting to describe any of these direct experiences, they are greatly diminished by the use of spoken or written language as a medium. The experience itself can only be hinted at.

The experience of climbing a route (assuming the same conditions for all) will be subtly or markedly different for different people. Various climbers may focus on different details or sense inputs when describing their send or epic, Yet it is the same route.

So it is with direct experience of communion with the Transcendent.

If you are convinced that your arguments are sound, cool. knock yourself out.
Your understanding begins and ends with the literature, which is fine is you are an academic, or planning to be one. Best of luck with that.

If your assertion of error relies on what you learnt in college, you may be in for a surprise. Truth is dynamic. hope it doesn't take until death for you to have that epiphany.

Merry Christmas & Peace to you also


chalkfree


Dec 25, 2005, 3:04 AM
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There's lots of different routes in the world dude.

I hardly think that all religions are getting at the same one thing, afterall monotheism was such a shock that it changed the world as we know it. If it was just a compiling of various aspects into one cohesive god I hardly think it would have been so influencial.


swimming_dragon


Dec 25, 2005, 6:45 AM
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There's lots of different routes in the world dude.

So I gather. Anyways, My point (basically)is that a person's take of a universal transcendent experience is affected and filtered through their personal conditioning and societal religious conditioning.

The mistake many people make is to get lost in the content of what is said at the expense of perceiving the overall process.

I used the metaphor of climbing a route to illustrate some of the processes involved in perceived differences of experiences, which at their core, are universal. I used One metaphor for the sake of simplicity.
Any talk of number or type of universal experiences is way beyond the scope of this discussion.

In reply to:
I hardly think that all religions are getting at the same one thing, afterall monotheism was such a shock that it changed the world as we know it. If it was just a compiling of various aspects into one cohesive god I hardly think it would have been so influencial.
That's your interpretation, not mine. It rather depends what you think that one thing is, and what you think the purposes of religion in general are.

The monotheistic faiths did have rather agressive sales and marketing departments- I'll give them that, and they still do to this day :wink:


squierbypetzl
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Dec 25, 2005, 10:04 AM
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Who are church leaders to dictate the teachings of the man himself? No earthly man can make that sort of decision just because they want their philosophy to feel more consistent. If you believe that the Bible is the word of God then that's it. Period. No wiggle room for what some church official feels comfortable with.

That is the kind of thinking that just drives me nuts. Picking and choosing your belief system while erasing and discrediting other viable legit sources and then criticizing other people for their belief structures. WTF gives? Is that not a double standard and I'm just hosed up?


Study Philosophy. It´s basic stuff. the Church started to assimilate its teachings to those of Plato centuries ago, and adapted his philosophy to fit their needs.

The Pope, being the upmost representative of Christ on Earth, and therefore judged to be capable of greater illumination by God, can make judgement calls on what is appropriate for the vast majority of christians to know. IE, he can decide if something might "confuse" the faithful and therefore withhold said information. Like the letters from a recent St (female), that contained predictions about the end of days. They exist, but the Vatican keeps them under tight wraps to avoid panic (or so they say, I dunno either way).


squierbypetzl
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Dec 25, 2005, 10:06 AM
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Read Marx and Nietzsche and Paul Shepard and Adam Smith....

don´t forget Engels... (good luck with that reading list btw)


htotsu


Dec 25, 2005, 5:44 PM
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Where did you answer a question hotsu? Use your brain not the book. This isn't an open book exam.
Hey, Chalkfree, that wasn't called for. You appeared to be asking what was in the bible regarding those things you mentioned, so I was letting you know what was in there that addressed your questions. I don't appreciate your tone - I was trying to address a question you asked, that's all. I don't have time right now so hopefully I can touch on this later if you're really interested in my personal view, but I was never disrespectful to you.


chalkfree


Dec 25, 2005, 7:21 PM
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Hotsu, I had in fact already read those quotes in previous posts, I was trying to ask a question leading to some degree of enlightenment on how people of faith reconcile this issue.

I was plainly somewhat put out with your lack of response to the question. All you managed to do was tell me what the very readily availible book says. What I was in fact in looking for was the personal view you sidestepped. I want to know how you sort out the "false prophets" from the real ones. In other words, I want to know what the bible is getting at with those passages.

I've also noted from your post that one of those was from Matthew, which renders my example of judaism somewhat erroneus. If you would like you may substitute it for either Islam or the Mormon faith.


cellardoor


Dec 26, 2005, 9:10 AM
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Holy twisted message batman.

Ok, who ever said the bible was all luvey duvey and nice? If it's a book about life... and life is not the most soft and cushy thing...then why would you expect the bible to be? It would be seem fake if it was just about hope and feeling good.

To chalk and those...i'm going to quote you a passage that says it better than i could and i believe every word:

Eph. 2
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

To see how one reconciles this issue: we are all short of God's "standard"(rom 3:23) that's why grace is necessary. I hope this is clear. That is how i and many others i know understand salvation and grace. What do we need to do then? John 1:12 says we need to recieve Him and believe in Him.

I'm sure you've heard this before as you phrased the question with a knowing aire. Is there a specific detail you were trying to probe or did that cover it?

PS Christ was not a false prophet for two HUGE reasons. The first is by the test already stated, he was not a false prophet as what he said came true. Second, so much prophecy foretold him and he contradicted none of the old testament.

Cheers, htotsu for your work above.


chalkfree


Dec 26, 2005, 4:40 PM
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So we should probly kill all those nasty muslims for not obeying the priest then eh?

Get over the idea that I imply Jesus was a false prophet, it's not an insult to you religion, it's a corellary to a statement of fact.

According to the old testiment, one should obey the priests of god, now as there are three religions buying into the truth of the old testiment I'm trying to assk how one assertains which is correct. I see now that it is a matter of faith, grace whatever.

The question now becomes, how do you disobey the word of god that hotsu so clearly quoted? The whole point of this thread is to ascertain where the love is, and one wonders if that love might just be what stays the hand of all these zealots.


cellardoor


Dec 26, 2005, 7:47 PM
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So we should probably kill all those nasty muslims for not obeying the priest then eh?

Nope, doesn't say that anywhere. If you imply this then your making assumptions that are not warranted. Come on man, in philosophy, your job is to think about your assumptions. For instance, it would be very easy for me to look at the data of the sun passing through the sky each day and then making a corollary from that fact that the sun orbits the earth, but it would be wrong. Your next question, what are the wrong assumptions? It would be more constructive for you to read context and think about them for abit, unless it's not worth the effort to you.

In reply to:
Get over the idea that I imply Jesus was a false prophet, it's not an insult to you religion, it's a corollary to a statement of fact.

I'm not offended buddy if that's what your implying. Simply stating that your corollary is wrong. plain and simple.

In reply to:
According to the old testament, one should obey the priests of god, now as there are three religions buying into the truth of the old testiment I'm trying to assk how one assertains which is correct. I see now that it is a matter of faith, grace whatever.

Yes, but it says to follow priests only if they agree with the Word of God, that is the authority. If they conflict with it, then out with them. To ascertain what the Word of God says, you must read it and attempt to understand what it says just like any other writing.

By the way, it definitely is a matter of faith and grace, no argument here. If you only will tell yourself you believe things that are empirical and nothing by faith then i recommend you seriously examine your philosophy of life.

In reply to:
The question now becomes, how do you disobey the word of god that hotsu so clearly quoted? The whole point of this thread is to ascertain where the love is, and one wonders if that love might just be what stays the hand of all these zealots.


Not sure what your last clause is meant to say but your right in the earlier part. The love is often lost when people talk about such things. The love is simply this, that though we didn't deserve anything from God as we disobeyed Him, He came and suffered and died for us so that not by any work of our own, we can know Him. That is an insane amount of love.

cheers, chalk for some fun discussion


chalkfree


Dec 26, 2005, 10:15 PM
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I've maybe been a bit unclear, although I'm having too much fun to hope this gets cleared up.

If the priests are not speaking the Word, out with them right? So which set of Yaweh's priests is right and which two are wrong? I'm just wondering if maybe that's one of those uncomfortable questions that I so like to ask.

As far as the corallary goes, the implication that two of these sets of priests have been led astray by false prophets follows from the idea that only one set of these priests can be right when they've all preached hatred of each other at some point.

Cheers to you as well cellardoor, what movie was that from again?


htotsu


Dec 27, 2005, 4:18 AM
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Hotsu, I had in fact already read those quotes in previous posts
And I was supposed to know this... how?

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I was plainly somewhat put out with your lack of response to the question. All you managed to do was tell me what the very readily availible book says. What I was in fact in looking for was the personal view you sidestepped.
From whence this hostility? Even if you were originally "put out" by what you interpreted as a deliberate "sidestepping", I have already written that I was answering what I thought you were asking.

The bible - readily available indeed (that was much of the point of my very first post, if you recall), yet very easy to attack without actually reading its contents. Given that I have no way of knowing what you have read before, whether in the bible or in other threads that I have not visited here, and given that the context of this thread was established from post #1 (bible verses), then why would I not respond from that perspective? In any case, it is reasonable that a discussion of how people of faith DO reconcile these issues should begin with how we believe we SHOULD reconcile these issues.

In reply to:
I want to know how you sort out the "false prophets" from the real ones. In other words, I want to know what the bible is getting at with those passages.
I believe those passages advise people to pay attention. Given how much emphasis is placed on obedience to the law, those who are in a position to interpret or enforce it should be held to a standard by those compelled to follow.

So how to tell who's who? Followers should learn about what those people should be doing, compare words to actions. Most importantly prophecy-wise, if it don't come true, it wasn't from God. That means if someone claiming to be a prophet of God is wrong about something, then people have no obligation to listen to or obey that person, ever. Pressure? Yup. Not a gig for the faint-hearted. But then there's a lot of incentive to keep your mouth shut unless you're sure about the message, because you lose your followers if you abuse your power... if the followers remember that this is their right.

I think this speaks to the need for anyone making a commitment to this lifestyle to read the bible for onesself, to establish a personal relationship with its contents, with its God, with onesself and one's principles. Otherwise those in power could just say anything.

Much like today's government. The less we know about the law, the constitution and the government at large, the easier it is for those in power to do whatever they want to do. What kind of threat are we to a corrupt power if we are uninformed as to the extent of their corruption? So, part of the message (to me) is "pay attention," "be educated," and "be responsible for your choices."


e_free


Dec 27, 2005, 10:20 AM
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its in chico! :D


Partner climbinginchico


Dec 27, 2005, 11:10 AM
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its in chico! :D

I'm glad the Love is here. :wink: Not so glad about the rain, and therefore lack of outdoors climbing. I suppose I could just play on the wall at work... :?


shortfatoldguy


Dec 27, 2005, 3:57 PM
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Read Marx and Nietzsche and Paul Shepard and Adam Smith....

don´t forget Engels... (good luck with that reading list btw)

E.g., _Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State_. Good call. Not even that tough a book.

[Edit to add that I've read **some** of all these guys...]

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