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cchaliens
Jan 4, 2006, 11:09 PM
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The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious .
An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax.
The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye.
David Waggoner at CCH
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tradklime
Jan 4, 2006, 11:15 PM
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Dave,
Did the cam in question from the "Feb. 2" allegation ever get examined by a metallurgist? If so, what was the result?
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fishercrack
Jan 4, 2006, 11:18 PM
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The axle holes? Do you belive they were also a hoax?
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anson
Jan 4, 2006, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax.
You appear to be implying that you are going to ignore your customer complaint unless the customer coughs up the dough to analyze your product for you. If you do indeed mean it that way, you deserve the massive loss of customers that will naturally result. Companies that pick fights with their customers, even with just a small fraction of those customers, inevitably fail.
As an alternative, if you were to request the Alien in question, get it analyzed in a lab on your nickel, and communicate to the climbing community what happened, regardless of whether it was a hoax or a product defect, you might actually earn some new customers out of respect for your demonstrated desire to learn more about your product from real-world incidents.
And should your product turn out to be defective, (never rule out the unlikely,) you might be able to recall its batch-mates in time to prevent being sued for criminal negligence by the bereaved family of some other climber who was not lucky enough to fall cleanly after the next failure. From what I have heard about the size of your business, a suit like that would probably kill CCH outright.
I'd suggest thinking about all these things before adopting a 'not my problem' stance, and if you're not, you might want to re-word your statement.
-aB
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healyje
Jan 4, 2006, 11:52 PM
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In reply to: The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious . An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax. The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye. David Waggoner at CCH
A hoax? David, wake up and smell the coffee, dude! That can't really be your response. You think he dug out a torch and undid the head of one of his Aliens to f#ck with you? You're kidding right? Did you even respond to the original poster? Did You arrange for an independent lab test of the cam such that original poster would send it directly to the lab for a truely independent test. Hell, I'd be willing to help arrange and pay for such a test. So are you serious? And as was just asked, what about the axle hole problem? Just how did that get out the door? How come when I and others send a cam in for repairs it takes months of badgering to see it come out the other end? I for one am positively shocked by your response and I do know about manufacturing so consider taking a few deep breaths, think it all over a bit more, and come back here with a credible response to this and the other issues that shows you have some remaining grip on reality...
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epic_ed
Jan 4, 2006, 11:53 PM
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Dave, many of us have been ardent and loyal CCH customers for years. As stated, I myself own 36 of your cams and cherish them dearly. Over the past year there have been accusations by at least three different individuals about the head failing during a fall. If you've followed any of these discussions, you'll note my response has always been to give you the benefit of the doubt and I've urged everyone to consider that even the best of manufacturing processes can't guarantee a defect free, fail-proof product every time and all the time. Sometimes gear fails and that's how it goes.
However, your response to this latest controversy baffles me. A one-in-a-million failure shouldn't happen three times in one year. Maybe this is a hoax and the accusations are entirely false, but I would hope that you could do a little more to reassure your customers that you are pursuing this accusation/problem to the ends of the earth. We have supported you over the years with our dollars, our loyalty, and by word of mouth. It shouldn't be very hard to get us to ralley in your defense, but you really need to do better than what appears to be complete denial of any problem. Dave -- the fucking sky is falling. Snap out of it.
How about if you explain for us what is being done to acquire the supposedly defective cam, and assure us that this and the other accusations are being investigated? If the original poster who is making these accusations is unwilling to cooperate and it turns out this is a hoax it would be very easy for you to publically discredit this guy and, believe me, the troops would rally and come to your defense.
Here's an example of what would be reasonable -- it seems there are a couple of "defects" that I'd like to see you address:
- How many cams went out with faulty-drilled lobes for axle insertion?
- Was it limited to just the Orange Alien? Or were other production models affected?
- What dates do you think these were produced and when/where were they distributed?
- What are you doing about these cams? Replacing them as customers complain seems like a really poor way to address the issue.
- What is the expect outcome of using one of these cams? Is the strength weakend, or does this just cause problems with the range?
- Out of the three accusations of the cam head failing at the braze that have occured in the past 12 months, how many of these cams have you been able to acquire for inspection?
- Have you been able to substantiate any truth to the claims, and if so, what is being done about it?
These aren't unreasonable questions, Dave. Please step to the plate, allow us to come to your defense by presenting yourself in a more credible and proactive light. I don't want to distrust my gear, especially not my Aliens. But I need more than the explanation you have offered above as an assurance to know you are doing everything possible to investigate the accusations of faulty production.
Thanks,
Ed
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flamer
Jan 4, 2006, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax. You appear to be implying that you are going to ignore your customer complaint unless the customer coughs up the dough to analyze your product for you. If you do indeed mean it that way, you deserve the massive loss of customers that will naturally result. Companies that pick fights with their customers, even with just a small fraction of those customers, inevitably fail. As an alternative, if you were to request the Alien in question, get it analyzed in a lab on your nickel, and communicate to the climbing community what happened, regardless of whether it was a hoax or a product defect, you might actually earn some new customers out of respect for your demonstrated desire to learn more about your product from real-world incidents. And should your product turn out to be defective, (never rule out the unlikely,) you might be able to recall its batch-mates in time to prevent being sued for criminal negligence by the bereaved family of some other climber who was not lucky enough to fall cleanly after the next failure. From what I have heard about the size of your business, a suit like that would probably kill CCH outright. I'd suggest thinking about all these things before adopting a 'not my problem' stance, and if you're not, you might want to re-word your statement. -aB
You should talk to Black Diamond....their attitude is much worse, on very similiar subjects.
I think I'ts been shown in the discussion on this site that the person making these accusations had an alterier(sp?) motive.
In my personal dealings with CCH they have been extremely easy to deal with and respectful/appreciative of their customer base.
I, for one ,will continue to use the quality product that CCH provides.
josh
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crimpstrength
Jan 5, 2006, 12:00 AM
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are you guys at cch going to run out of money soon, so you will get back to work?
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pdx_climber
Jan 5, 2006, 12:04 AM
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This forum is ridiculous sometimes.
Did the people who experienced this malfunction go direclty to CCH with the issue, or just post about it here? If it's only the latter, I'd call their motives and intellgence into question.
And what's up with the troll by crimpstrength? Doesn't that kind of crap get tossed out by the mods?
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healyje
Jan 5, 2006, 12:06 AM
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In reply to: I think I'ts been shown in the discussion on this site that the person making these accusations had an alterier(sp?) motive.
Josh where - exactly - in this thread has it been shown that the original poster had any ulterior motives whatsoever? So far they have been completely forthright in attempting to present this problem and get it resolved. There is no basis whatsoever for your statement above...
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epic_ed
Jan 5, 2006, 12:06 AM
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In reply to: This forum is ridiculous sometimes. Did the people who experienced this malfunction go direclty to CCH with the issue, or just post about it here? If it's only the latter, I'd call their motives and intellgence into question.
How 'bout if you puruse the original thread?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104150&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0
In reply to: And what's up with the troll by crimpstrength? Doesn't that kind of crap get tossed out by the mods?
Sometimes. You looking for a job?
Ed
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davidji
Jan 5, 2006, 12:10 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think I'ts been shown in the discussion on this site that the person making these accusations had an alterier(sp?) motive. Josh where - exactly - in this thread has it been shown that the original poster had any ulterior motives whatsoever? So far they have been completely forthright in attempting to present this problem and get it resolved. There is no basis whatsoever for your statement above... |
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healyje
Jan 5, 2006, 12:12 AM
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In reply to: This forum is ridiculous sometimes. Did the people who experienced this malfunction go direclty to CCH with the issue, or just post about it here? If it's only the latter, I'd call their motives and intellgence into question. And what's up with the troll by crimpstrength? Doesn't that kind of crap get tossed out by the mods?
Did you actually read this and the other threads or did you just drop in on this page and decide to be glib...?
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davidji
Jan 5, 2006, 12:12 AM
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In reply to: The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious . An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax. The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye. David Waggoner at CCH
Of course it's entirely possible it is a hoax. It isn't obvious that any of us knows the OP or his partner who list only each others as partners.
OTOH, you seem to be dismissing the possibility that the device was defective. Not only is it possible for anyone to build defective product, it's nearly impossible to prevent that. Furthermore, even with stringent quality control it's nearly impossible to keep from shipping at least some defective product. With lax quality control, you're likely to ship more.
We've seen enough reports lately of Aliens with defects to question CCH's quality control. And these have come from a variety of users, including people who are known in our community.
I would have expected CCH to want to device to analyze, but at this point I also would prefer to hear what an independent lab has to say.
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epic_ed
Jan 5, 2006, 12:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think I'ts been shown in the discussion on this site that the person making these accusations had an alterier(sp?) motive. Josh where - exactly - in this thread has it been shown that the original poster had any ulterior motives whatsoever? So far they have been completely forthright in attempting to present this problem and get it resolved. There is no basis whatsoever for your statement above...
Josh, I've gotta agree -- no one has established that the OP has any bone to pick with CCH. Aside from the cam head failure problem is the axle/lobe defect with the Orange Aliens which CCH readily admits was a production issue. How many of them are out there is shops right now ready for sale? Where is the accountability? That's really all we're asking for.
Ed
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ctclimbz
Jan 5, 2006, 12:17 AM
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The 'official' response to these allegations is pathetic and inadequate. End of story. I had reserved judgment while reading these threads as I, like so many, dig my aliens. After that response, though, the way forward is clear. My money will be spent elsewhere.
CCH - You folks should be ashamed. Very, very sad. Address the issue, don't attack the messanger.
Edit: I will be bringing this issue to the attention of the folks at the local gear shops. Words online may be worth little, but CCH might be a little more attentive if their bottom line suffers.
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crimpstrength
Jan 5, 2006, 12:18 AM
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epic_ed:
In reply to: How many of them are out there is shops right now ready for sale?
none
i just got back from north conway nh and had a great chat with the folks in ime. They expressed extreme dissapointment in their dealing with cch. I am not taking sides, just telling my story from talking to people who know what's up.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jan 5, 2006, 12:19 AM
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Oooh, a good ol' fashion Internet lynching. Proof once more why companies should NEVER respond to BS on lame forums.
Dave, your best bet is to shut up, deal with the situation offline, and never waste time on this site. Good luck!
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fear
Jan 5, 2006, 12:23 AM
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Dave,
It might very well be a hoax but I've got a lot of Aliens myself that I'd hate to see become Christmas tree ornaments because of it.
So to what lab should he send this piece? Names/numbers, etc... As most of us have not ordered metallurgical tests, what specifically should he request? Will you agree to pay for the tests? Hell, you have enough people here that would chip in, myself included.
Does anyone know if CCH at least pull tests each cam to a few hundred pounds?
-Fear
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md3
Jan 5, 2006, 12:31 AM
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I understand and agree with reserving judgment until the piece is analyzed, but why would you assume it’s a hoax? That is a serious allegation. If it were true the responsible party could face a civil suit if you suffered business losses as a result of their actions and perhaps criminal charges in some places. What motivation would the orange unit poster have for a hoax? They are not, apparently, claiming any injury or loss other than the cost of a new cam, so they are not trying to set CCH up for a law suit. The climber who fell on the orange unit has a picture of himself showing his face in his profile and he has provided his location and his first name – all of which would be inadvisable if he was trying to create a “hoax” for personal entertainment or out of some anti-CCH vendetta.
Flamer wrote:
In reply to: I think I'ts been shown in the discussion on this site that the person making these accusations had an alterier(sp?) motive.
How was an ulterior motive demonstrated? Seriously, faking gear failure in order to harm someone’s business would be despicable. Don’t suggest it without providing a detailed explanation.
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motomagik
Jan 5, 2006, 12:39 AM
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A hoax? And excuse me "Flamer" what gives you the right to claim that this person had an alterior motive!!!! What is wrong with you people? Everyone who I know that owns Aliens loves them, including myself.
What makes you think that someone would stage this sort of thing? Risk their life in a fall and ruin their precious Alien to play a game with someone? To pick a fight with a tiny company? PLEASE!
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thrutch
Jan 5, 2006, 12:52 AM
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as i said b4 cch is junk and their response proves so. sack up and admit maybe you are wrong, there is nothing wrong with this. just like the splitter cams this site tried to push a few years back, they were/are junk and the owner/design got all butt hurt. ignorance is bliss.
cch is junk.
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davidji
Jan 5, 2006, 1:03 AM
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In reply to: What makes you think that someone would stage this sort of thing? Risk their life in a fall and ruin their precious Alien to play a game with someone? To pick a fight with a tiny company? PLEASE!
Aliens are the preferred small cam. A hoax designed to instill Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) could change that. OTOH so could the results of shipping too many defective cams.
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ksolem
Jan 5, 2006, 1:05 AM
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I never liked aliens much. The manufacture always seemed a bit cluged. Of course when I voiced my opinion before this whole situation many people (mosly nubies) would call me a nut. For me this is just another case which proves I should trust my instincts.
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davidji
Jan 5, 2006, 1:09 AM
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In reply to: You should talk to Black Diamond....their attitude is much worse, on very similiar subjects. |
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