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superjosh
Jan 4, 2006, 5:29 AM
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We hear much on this site about climbing engineers, doctors, and professors, but little about the lawyers out there cranking. Do they exist? As a second-year law student, I'm beginning to get a bit concerned that a lawyer's work-life balance is skewed in favor of the former, and that a career in the law precludes a climber's lifestyle--roadtripping, dirtbagging, and generally sucking the proverbial marrow. I'd like to hear from any of the lawyers in our community on how best to enjoy a fulfilling legal career and at the same time get in plenty of days in the mountains. Are there particular fields or career paths to avoid? What about life as a solo practitioner? Contract worker? Sabbaticals? If you decide to work for a big firm will you be chained to your desk billing hours 24/7? Any input would be appreciated.
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wjca
Jan 4, 2006, 2:46 PM
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One disadvantage of being a lawyer is that you don't have the time to go on endless road trips and dirtbag it. You have to hit the gym late at night and either wait on or create those three-day weekends to hit that road trip. One advantage of being a lawyer, is you don't have to dirtbag it anymore.
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bbecker
Jan 4, 2006, 3:13 PM
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The nice part is that you have the cash to go on good trips, the bad part is that you don't have the time to go on as many trips as you would like, with billable hor requirements, etc. I got lucky and work for a small firm that pays me well, but doesn't have a billable requirement and the vacation policy is pretty much "as long as you get your work done" you can come and go.
If you work at a big firm, you are probably screwed. I have heard from friends that the 2000-2200 billable requirement is not at all uncommon and doesn't leave a lot of time for recreation.
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peeps
Jan 4, 2006, 3:19 PM
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I am a climbing lawyer. Granted, I'm a noob, but I still like to get out and climb. Been practicing since 1998.
I can tell you this...if you follow the big firm career path (been there, done that for 4 years and happily left), the firm expects that your career is your life. Bottom line: big firms want billable hours. It's not fun, and though the salaries are good, you don't have much free time to do much else. I've moved on and work in a smaller firm...salary isn't quite as good, but I have more free time and am not expected to be chained to a desk. If you are a solo practitioner, expect to be busy as well, but you have more control of your schedule. A good friend of mine has gone this route, and though he's not a climber, he has a lot of free time to travel, etc. The down side of being a solo practioner is that you're going to have to work long hours to get your name known so that business walks through the door...or you'll be dirtbagging it as well.
I get a fair amount of time to go climb in the gym and on the weekends outdoors when weather permits..and I have vacation time. While the law consumes a lot of my life, I have learned that, for my own sanity, I need the balance of doing things outside my career (climbing being one of them).
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csgambill
Jan 4, 2006, 3:43 PM
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I'm an accountant and I have a similar problem. I think being a professional puts a small damper on having a "climbing" lifestyle. I have to settle for weekend trips and the occasional large trip. Luckily my employer is also pretty generous with letting me take time off, just have to get all my work done. I know someone mentioned it before, but the good thing about being a professional is that you can afford those big trips and lots of gear.
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esallen
Jan 4, 2006, 3:53 PM
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I am not an attorney yet (still a student like you), but I've been working for a law firm for several years and have thought a lot about your question ever since I decided to pursue a legal education and legal career path.
I work as a paralegal at a relatively small firm in Utah, having 5 attorneys, and about 15 legal assistants of various sorts and specialties. Although the attorneys here do not make hundreds of thousands per year (except for our boss), they do have very good salaries and it is an 8-5 job 5 days a week that is very flexible for them. Even if you are not an attorney, it has been pretty flexible here. I can usually get off any day I ask for even with short notice; I just have to make sure all my work gets done. While long climbing trips are still next to impossible, it is possible to make several week-long trips per year and numerous Friday-Sat trips.
I think the best way to ensure you have plenty of time for climbing is to either work for a small flexible law firm, or to start your own firm. My boss started his own firm 10 years ago in his basement; his wife was his secretary. Now he is mega rich and working very little, only when he wants to. Pretty cool! Too bad he isn’t a climber. Anyway, that’s my two bits. It is frightening to think that I might do nothing more that work for the rest of my life; I will not accept that, no matter what my salary is. Climbing is a very important part of my life; something that I’m not ready to give up just for a 6-figure salary.
Eric
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mjroche
Jan 4, 2006, 4:36 PM
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I think the previous posts have pretty well covered the trade-off. The more you work, the more money, but the less time you have. If you want summers off to dirtbag in Yosemite, it's going to be tough to practice. But, if you are hoping to get a couple of weeklong trips every year, plus plenty of weekend cragging, that can be done. You just have to pick the right place to practice. From what I've seen, big East and West Coast firms are FAR more obsessed with billable hours than even the regional offices of national firms in towns like Denver, Salt Lake, Sacramento, Las Vegas etc. So, if you want to try to strike a balance, stay out of towns like New York, L.A. etc. because there you truly will become a slave to the office.
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duppyc
Jan 4, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Well, since this is a climbing related link and it seems most you lawyers are trying to find a way around the man and thus more time to climb, I guess I will be a little nicer than I usually am to JD's. I can tell anyone with a JD how they can place 5-10 ads in certain professional journals and EASILY make multiple Six-figures and have PLENTY of time to climb. I am not an attorney, but, I make more than most and take at least 8-10 weeks of vacation per year. If you are interested in hearing how your JD can be used to make tons of easy cash(most without even meeting client face-to-face) PM me and prepare to pay a small fee.
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fredbob
Jan 4, 2006, 4:51 PM
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There are plenty of climbing lawyers. However, as others have pointed out, finding a balance between career and climbing (and family, etc.) can be difficult. But, this is true of other professions as well and will depend on your personal motivation and goals.
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duppyc
Jan 4, 2006, 4:58 PM
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FredBob, I'm telling you and all the rest, it's easy to climb alot and make tons of money and still have time for the wife and kids. Depends on your motivations, you just need to be willing to think out of the box and go against what most will tell you to do. There are MANY ways to bankroll off of a JD.
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el_jerko
Jan 4, 2006, 5:29 PM
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oh... I thought this thread was going to be about hiring a lawyer. You know, to get a grade changed, to contest someones redpoint claim, or to get the rename rights because of an added sitdown start, that kind of thing.
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bbecker
Jan 4, 2006, 5:48 PM
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In reply to: FredBob, I'm telling you and all the rest, it's easy to climb alot and make tons of money and still have time for the wife and kids. Depends on your motivations, you just need to be willing to think out of the box and go against what most will tell you to do. There are MANY ways to bankroll off of a JD.
Do you have some suggestions for me? :D
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esallen
Jan 4, 2006, 6:37 PM
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Now he is going to ask YOU for your money, watch...
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duppyc
Jan 4, 2006, 7:13 PM
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Hey Eric, of course I will ask for a fee, I don't hide that fact. I am not going to give the keys to a money maker without getting compensated for it. When your checks change from Paralegal to Lawyer status you may understand where I am coming from, or, you may end up frying yourself in an attempt to keep up with the Mr. Jones's that somehow still manage 2500+ billable hours/year and drive an M3. Like I mentioned previously I am not an attorney, but, the option to go to law school is still available, I am young and have the cash to finance it. Some of this available money I already make without a JD, however, having the degree only legitimizes further the services to be provided. Again, this is Easy $$.
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bbecker
Jan 4, 2006, 7:36 PM
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Good call Eric, if I ever decide to leave my current attorney gig, I will find new employment on my own, sans fee.
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veganboyjosh
Jan 4, 2006, 7:44 PM
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In reply to: with billable hor requirements,
i knew i shoulda been a lawyer.
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bbecker
Jan 4, 2006, 7:54 PM
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oops, I can't have my secretary proofread my posts on rc.com.
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fredbob
Jan 5, 2006, 4:22 AM
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In reply to: Hey Eric, of course I will ask for a fee, I don't hide that fact. I am not going to give the keys to a money maker without getting compensated for it. .blah, blah, blah.... Again, this is Easy $$.
"easy money" "keys to a money maker" .... Someone should nuke this spam.
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joe_d
Jan 5, 2006, 9:51 PM
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I am a 2nd year associate at a large national law firm in Chicago. We have the typical 2000 billable hour requirement (minimum), and like most have already said, its a b*tch to take time off. However, I climb indoors at least once a week, and in the summer I could get to Devils Lake maybe every other weekend. Of course, that might not be enough for some people, but if you enjoy climbing as a hobby, rather than an all-out lifestyle, it may be enough. I like to work out the other days of the week to stay in shape and to prevent over-use injuries. So far so good (although I'm a noob). Plus, there are good things about being a lawyer. First of all, usually you have control over your schedule. If I want to take a 3 day weekend, its usually OK as long as I work hard the other 4 days of the week. Secondly, like others have said, you will probably have the financial means to really enjoy and take advantage of your time off. For example, last year I took a week off and climbed Mount Rainier. The year before I took a two week mountaineering course with Alpine Ascents. Those things aren't free, and they were great experiences which I enjoyed and which have made me a better all-around climber. Lastly, being a young lawyer might require a lot of time, but if you are smart and make contacts/clients, it is possible to make partner and have a lot more control over your schedule and the amount you work. Hell, if you can bring in business to any firm, they will leave you on the payroll even if you're just a rainmaker and never show up for work. Even better, find a client who likes to climb and charge a climbing trip on your firm as client entertainment. While this may not be possible for a young attorney, it is possible after practicing a while. If you went right to law school, that means that by the time you were mid-30's, you could be more or less in control of your schedule and have a great job. On the other hand, the worst part of being a lawyer is that you never know for sure if you can leave for a weekend. You can never make final plans, because at any time something could come up. There is a joke (albeit a bad one) that TROs are only filed on Fridays when you have something important planned. So a good idea is to find an understanding partner (maybe another attorney or another professional) who will not be pissed if you have to cancel last minute. Some other advice is not to live in Chicago. Find a place with good outdoor climbing close by. There are a lot of times that I can leave work by 3pm. If I were closer to some rock, I would get out there on those days. When its all said and done, the answer remains the same. You can't have everything (no matter what Duppyc says). You can't have a successful career as a lawyer, a good/happy family life, reliable income and also be a 24/7 climber at the same time. You have to pick your priorities, but it is possible to have a successful career as a lawyer and also climb as a hobby on the weekends and after work. The typical weekend warrior. You might not climb 5.13 this way, but who cares? If you enjoy your career, provide a secure future for your family and can only climb 5.8 you are doing better than 90% of people out there.
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fredbob
Jan 5, 2006, 10:09 PM
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5.8! Don't make it sound so grim.
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leaverbiner
Jan 5, 2006, 10:29 PM
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I fit the category - I graduated law school in 1998 and the proceeded to a 2 year appellate clerkship. I have been in private practice for approximately 5 years first as a general commercial litgator now as a land use attorney. When I was a clerk life was grand, decent pay, great benefits and TONS of time to climb. In fact this is when I was first introduced to climbing. I would climb at least twice a week at a gym and then almost every weekend from March through November with 2 week long trips each year. Since leaving my clerkship and actually havign to work my schedule has drastically changed. I still love to climb and many many days, I miss it desperately. Nevertheless, even with billing over 2000 hours a year I get to the gym one or twice a week and would have time to climb most weekends if the golf didn't get in the way!
Don't fall for the whole Big/firm small firm thing either. The firm I work for is midsized, 40 attorneys and just about everyone in my office works as hard and puts in similar hours to any big firm. Most do it because they actually enjoy what they are doing - as I do. It is incredibly cliche, but work hard, play hard really is what it is all about. I don't climb as much as I would like, but at the same time I know I can provide for my family and I don't have to worry about how I'm going to pay for my next climbing trip.
Good luck with whatever path you choose.
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superjosh
Jan 5, 2006, 11:25 PM
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Thanks to all those currently practicing who have informed the discussion here. A few clarifications: I plan to practice either in Denver or Boulder, most likely at a big firm with a billable requirement between 1800 and 1900. I think I'd be content climbing in the gym a couple of nights a week, getting outside 3 out of 4 weekends, and having 2 or 3 longer (7-10 day) trips a year. Based on the responses here, it sounds like those are reasonable expectations for a young lawyer without a wife or kids, which is reassuring. I think my long-term plan might be to try to start my own practice. Any suggestions on practice areas that are conducive to a small practice and project-style work (i.e. where I could work a few months, then take some time off)?
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fredbob
Jan 5, 2006, 11:53 PM
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Small firm or solo practice is not some panacea where you have lots more time to play. Still it is (imo) much better than a bigger firm.
The problem with a big firm is that your exposure to different practice areas is often very limited and the amount of real world experience may be disappointing. You can toil for a long time in relative obscurity doing grunt work.
You have to realize that fresh out of law school (barring a great clerkship) you basically know squat about practicing law. As a law clerk or new associate you actually get to learn something practical for the first time. If the variety of matters you get exposed to are too specialized as an associate you may find your experience is ill suited to other areas of law that may intrigue you.
Actually, it might be more valuable to have a "residency" type program for new lawyers where they get practical experience and training and can make intelligent choices about which area(s) of law they would like to pursue.
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