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phaedrus
Jan 13, 2006, 1:35 AM
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Dave... thank you for taking the time to post this. I will move it to World Climbing News so that it gets the attention it deserves.
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phaedrus
Jan 13, 2006, 1:36 AM
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phaedrus moved this thread from General to World Climbing News.
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tattooed_climber
Jan 13, 2006, 1:38 AM
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just my luck....my very first alien is recalled...thanks for posting up...i'll hlep spread the word
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josephgdawson
Jan 13, 2006, 1:51 AM
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Thanks Dave
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chanceboarder
Jan 13, 2006, 1:56 AM
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thanks guys, well all appreciate it i'm sure.
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jakedatc
Jan 13, 2006, 2:01 AM
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Anybody save the close up pictures that Insaino posted of his came that the head came off of at IC? I'm interested in seeing if the failed cam has the dimple
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gullwing19
Jan 13, 2006, 2:08 AM
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So when may I expect my replacement cam? If my past dealings with your company are an example of the importance you place on customer service...would I be a wee bit smarter taking them back to the place of purchase and asking for my money back? And will those places of purchase honor this recall? Truthfully...I'll be damned if I'm gonna send you my defective Alien and then expect a replacement before August of 2009. I want my money back. TCU's and Camalots from here on out!!
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chanceboarder
Jan 13, 2006, 2:11 AM
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In reply to: Anybody save the close up pictures that Insaino posted of his came that the head came off of at IC? I'm interested in seeing if the failed cam has the dimple |
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kimgraves
Jan 13, 2006, 2:17 AM
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Dave,
I'm glad you've figured out what happened and issued an appropriate recall.
But a question remains: What positive steps are you going to take to assure me that adequate QA is done and that this won't happen again? Will you commit to testing every cam? How do I know that the Aliens I have (without the dimple) are okay?
I'm sorry, but until I hear of positive steps to improve QA I am loath to buy additional CCH products or use the products I have. After all, defective cams slipped through your current QA procedures for over a year. And reports of failure were met with derision rather than prompt investigation.
I personally feel that you've handled this question of a defective safety product very badly. But we live and learn. You do have a unique and special product. As one small businessperson to another I wish you the best and hope to hear of new QA that will restore my faith in CCH and allow me to purchase and use your products again.
Sincerely, Kim Graves
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skinner
Jan 13, 2006, 2:36 AM
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Most of all I would love to know what the turn around time will be before I see (11) of my cams on my rack again :cry:
Please post an "expected" replacement time on your website!!!
Past history of replacements have been dismal to say the least
Thank You
(I hope the retailers will participate in this recall)
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patto
Jan 13, 2006, 2:41 AM
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In reply to: Dave, I'm glad you've figured out what happened and issued an appropriate recall. But a question remains: What positive steps are you going to take to assure me that adequate QA is done and that this won't happen again? Will you commit to testing every cam? I'm sorry, but until I hear of positive steps to improve QA I am loath to buy additional CCH products. After all, defective cams slipped through your current QA procedures for over a year. And reports of failure were met with derision rather than prompt investigation. I personally feel that you've handled this question of a defective safety product very badly. But we live and learn. You do have a unique and special product. As one small businessperson to another I wish you the best and hope to hear of new QA that will restore my faith in CCH and allow me to purchase your products again. Sincerely, Kim Graves
I agree. Though I'm not an Alien customer so I guess my opinion doesn't matter. At the very least there should be an apology on this forum, in particular to the person that was slandered as creating a hoax about defective Aliens.
While they have been contacted now, the Consumer Products Safety Commissionis probably blissfully unaware of the lack of attention CCH gave to previous reports of defective cams. Im sure they would appreciate an email referring them to the way these earlier reports were treated by CCH.
Aliens are a great cam design, but the way they treat customers is not a recipe for success.
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eyecannon
Jan 13, 2006, 3:02 AM
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Thanks for the recall, here's to hoping that things get sorted out quickly, and that we can get replacements in a timely fashion.
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sandstonejunkie
Jan 13, 2006, 3:21 AM
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Personally I am still uneasy about my recent Alien purchase. 5 Aliens. None have the "dimple", all stamped 1005.
Will we get a more detailed explanation at some point? What went wrong in the manufacturing process? How was it determined that the defective units are marked with a dimple? Can I really be assured that the cams I purchased, stamped as manufactured after November 2004 are defect free?
Honestly I still think my best course of action is to return the cams to REI. I just don't think I'll be able to climb above them and feel safe. I really, really want to but my confidence in them is totally destroyed.
CCH, I really want to have faith in your product, currently I do not, I hope you can restore it someday.
James Glover
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tgreene
Jan 13, 2006, 3:22 AM
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In reply to: While they have been contacted now, the Consumer Products Safety Commissionis probably blissfully unaware of the lack of attention CCH gave to previous reports of defective cams. Im sure they would appreciate an email referring them to the way these earlier reports were treated by CCH.
While the initial CCH response was less than flattering, it cannot be changed. We also have no way of knowing the hells that Dave and CCH have gone through in this matter from the moment he was first made aware of this incident, but I'm quite sure it's something that neither I nor any of you would ever want to be faced with.
This is a very small industry, and as a community, we cannot afford to loose any more manufacturers than we already have. While I don't personally own any Aliens, I will make it a point to get a set as soon as the bugs are corrected and I can afford them...
This is no doubt a devastingly costly situation, and I feel pretty strongly that we can all participate in helping CCH to recover, because it's times like this when we need to be our brothers' keeper!
Tim Greene
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daithi
Jan 13, 2006, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: Basically, why would that punch have been put on selective cams?
It's intriguing isn't it? I would love to know what it indicates. Let 13 pages of speculation ensue! :)
I find the influence of rc.com on the industry in the US fascinating. The mgear test, the CCH recall etc. were all unlikely to happen (at least not as promptly) without the pressure put on by the members of rc.com.
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haas
Jan 13, 2006, 3:39 AM
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I have aliens some new, some old and have taken huge whippers on all of them. I constantly find placements where Aliens fit that camalots and TCUs do not. Most of my rack is BD and I'm a die hard camalot fan, but Aliens fill that nitch other cams cannot. I will continue to use my cams because on dicey leads when you are runnout on suspect rock, they still inspire more confidence in me than anything else. I am sorry this has happened to CCH and I hope this does not destroy them economically. Good luck Dave
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sandstonejunkie
Jan 13, 2006, 3:45 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Honestly I still think my best course of action is to return the cams to REI. I just don't think I'll be able to climb above them and feel safe. I really, really want to but my confidence in them is totally destroyed. Many many many people have taken whippers on Aliens and they held fine. Plenty of automobiles have had recalls, but do you feel unsafe driving a Ford or Chevrolet now? One bad batch shouldn't ruin it for you, I love my Aliens and I have enough faith in humanity to believe that CCH would not knowingly allow defective cams to be used by customers. Of course, only time will tell if other batches are affected as well.
You're right. Many Aliens have held falls. Some have not.
CCH admits discovering a problem in their manufacturing process, a problem dating back over a year. The Aliens I don't trust were manufactured during that time period. To me, that makes them suspect.
Perhaps CCH's previous responses have jaded me on trusting the "dimple" identification method without more information.
Personally I don't want to be the one to identify another bad batch.
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crimpstrength
Jan 13, 2006, 3:46 AM
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and their website is updated with recall information where?
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dynosore
Jan 13, 2006, 3:57 AM
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In what seems to be typical CCH style, there is no photo on their website. I did find these gems however:
In reply to: Quality connections. The main cable is individually silver brazed 10mm deep to the stainless cable eye fitting. Nicopress copper cable fittings are used for the swaged connections. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quality control. All machined parts are manufactured in our shop with modern computer numeric controlled equipment. This allows us to control the manufacturing processes from start to finish, eliminating possible errors from outside contractors.
After all this there is no way in the world I believe that they did extensive enough testing to ensure that lack of a dimple means the cam is bomber.
Questions that need answered:
Did all the MGear cams that failed have dimples?
Did the now notorious orange alien that started this all have the dimple?
Does CCH pull test each cam to some load less than break?
Does CCH test every lot?
If CCH is subcontracting production do they test the units made, or leave it up to the subcontractor?
If it's so hard to get aliens now, how long will it take to get replacements when they have a slew of them to replace?
In haste to save face and replace said aliens, are we to believe QC and production standards will be better?
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giza
Jan 13, 2006, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: I have aliens some new, some old and have taken huge whippers on all of them. I constantly find placements where Aliens fit that camalots and TCUs do not. Most of my rack is BD and I'm a die hard camalot fan, but Aliens fill that nitch other cams cannot. I will continue to use my cams because on dicey leads when you are runnout on suspect rock, they still inspire more confidence in me than anything else. I am sorry this has happened to CCH and I hope this does not destroy them economically. Good luck Dave
I couldn't agree more. I have fallen on all of my Aliens and they have performed true to their reputation. I will continue to use them and to support CCH in the future.
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philbox
Moderator
Jan 13, 2006, 4:31 AM
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I`m definitely not wanting to kill any legitimate debate but it is now time to allow CCH to get on with the job of rectifying a horrid situation. Please keep this thread open for legitimate developments as they come to hand. I`m sure that most people will be vitally interested in how CCH handle the recall and the timely return of items.
In a few days I will be condensing the various Alien threads into one or perhaps two threads for future reference. If you have further general discussion to add to the issue then do feel free to post to the original threads.
Thank you one and all for all of the discussion so far which has obviously helped to bring the matter to a head from which it is hoped a successful resolution will be forthcoming.
Phil Box for rc.com site management.
P.S. disclosure of conflict of interest, I am of the cult of Alien worshippers. I still love my Aliens, I am very saddened by the current problems at CCH and I wish them all the very best in their endeavours to rectify the defective items.
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