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lil_monkey
Jan 22, 2006, 7:12 PM
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anykineclimb
Jan 22, 2006, 7:22 PM
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In reply to: i have trouble getting my harness as tight as it will go around my waist because it needs doubling back and if it was tight i couldn't double it back
If you tighten a harness, you have more material to run through the buckle. What harness do you have right now?
Waist tightness only keeps you from falling OUT of the harness. if you're properly fitted, you shouldn't flip over if hanging in a harness.
as for not wanting to buy another harness in the next 5 years, drop that idea. you'll want and need another if you still with climbing very long. personally, I've have 6 harnesses in the past 13 years of climbing. and I'm sure people out there have had more!
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chalkfree
Jan 22, 2006, 9:05 PM
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If you learn to climb right you should be less worried about flipping over. In theory you only flip over when you screw up by putting your heel behind the rope or some other foolishness.
As to whether or not a loose harness will hold, I assure you that I've hung upsidedown in mine on purpose, with no worries about it coming off. Mine's loose enough that I can put both fists between my body and the waist belt. Damn Petzl for not making a harness to fit those of us with 26 inch waists.
Bottom line: No worries it's fine.
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glyrocks
Jan 22, 2006, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: If you learn to climb right you should be less worried about flipping over. In theory you only flip over when you screw up by putting your heel behind the rope or some other foolishness.
Not exactly. Sure, if you climb right you won't fall so, no, you wouldn't have to worry about flipping over. But that's about as far as that theory will take you. Flipping over does happen, and not just because the rope is behind your leg. My last big fall had me upside down, and it had nothing to do with the rope behind my leg, or anything I did wrong (short of allowing the fall to happen in the first place). Think overhangs, heel hooks, hight feet, and poor harness fit.
You can keep from flipping over a lot of ways, but theorizing it only happens when you do something foolish is not a constructive way of preventing or preparing for inverted falls.
If you are unsure of your harness fit, find someone in real life experienced with harness fit (not just a strong climber 'cause we all know plenty of strong climbers who are dumbasses). Make sure the rise is correct, the belt the right length, leg loops, etc. Your harness can 'cause you to flip over, but it may also be something you're doing wrong if/when you fall.
Also, you can't double-back when it's tight? Huh? Maybe I don't understand what's going on, but sounds like you need someone to show you how to do that too. Maybe you should find another shop to buy gear from if someone let you out of a shop with a harness that doesn't fit and you can't get it to double-back.
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daithi
Jan 22, 2006, 10:06 PM
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Just make sure the leg loops are nice and tight! :)
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steelhands
Jan 22, 2006, 10:56 PM
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I was belaying my partner on a short trad FA. He peeled near the top, hit a small ledge with his right foot, flipped unside down, the pro stopped him and there he was, hanging upside down after a twenty footer.
Not sure where all this "don't flip upside down" stuff is coming from. It damn sure happens and you better make sure you won't come out of that harness. If I was unsure, I'd throw a rope over something low and test it.
Bottom line is get a harness that fits you. And that means tightly enough around the waist, above this hip bones, that you can't slide out.
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chalkfree
Jan 22, 2006, 11:18 PM
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It's not so much, "Don't flip over" as it is avoid flipping over when possible. Yeah it happens, but harness fit isn't generally that big of an issue. There's going to be some other type of force applied to you if you find yourself upsidedown that'll keep you in your harness. Your foot caught, it flips you, but it also gave you some circular momentum that's going to keep you in that harness, plus the fact that your harness has an asymetric load (the fact that the tie in is on the front). Basically you'd have to be doing something really really scary to fall in such a way that your harness could come off even if it is loosely fitting. Think rope jumping facing the ground tied into the front and back of your harness.
The only time I've ever been worried about a harness coming off was with a 5 year old kid who almost inverted because the harness shifted to one side.
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glyrocks
Jan 22, 2006, 11:32 PM
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Sure, I agree that it's unlikely you're going to actually fall out of your harness, even if it's a really poor fit. You could stick my sub-100 pound sister in a medium Misty harness and she'd probably be all right in most cases.
All the same, poor harness fit is a big cause of inverted falls, and a big issue. I just want the OP to be clear that it is imperative that his harness fits properly, because it can very easily cause him to flip over, and that's always bad, even if he doesn't fall out of it.
Okay, reread the original post. It doesn't seem like the OP was as concerned with flipping over as he was with falling out because he flipped over. So, you're right, he doesn't need to worry about falling out of it unless it is ridiculously too big and the waist comes up to his chin when he's tying in. My concern is that the OP is unaware that even if he doesn't fall out, he still doesn't want to flip over. Like someone else said, you should be able to hang in your harness without having to fight the pull to flip over.
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holdplease2
Jan 22, 2006, 11:37 PM
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I call bullshit on the "won't flip over" statement.
If your hands slip off of something when your feet are fairly positive, you can rotate upside down.
If you have your rack on a chest harness or sling, even if your sit harness fits right, you can rotate upside down in a fall as the rope starts to catch.
If your feet catch on the rock as you fall, you can flip upside down.
The longer the fall, the longer your body has to "rotate in space", in whatever direction your body english sends you rotating.
I've been upside down on three falls at least, two different harnesses, all three times for different reasons. One sport, one trad, one aid.
IMO, harness fit is very important. Both to limit rotation (check the rise of the harness) and to keep you in the harness.
-Kate.
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chalkfree
Jan 22, 2006, 11:42 PM
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I entirely agree, harnesses should fit correctly. One should be totally comfortable hanging in their harness for at least a couple minutes, and it should be bearable for an hour at a minimum.
To the OP: if you cannot hang in your harness without a tendancy towards inversion it will NOT work. If you can it shouldn't be a real problem assuming it's made for climbing.
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lil_monkey
Jan 23, 2006, 12:36 AM
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peace
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overlord
Jan 23, 2006, 8:00 AM
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get a harness that fits.
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getsomeethics
Jan 23, 2006, 10:10 AM
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worst fall i ever took pitched me head first down the climb; is that upside down enough?
i was laybacking a flaring crack and when my hands popped off the sloping lip of the crack while i was half jamming my toes. i pitched off backwards and my feet got stuck just long enough to send me down headfirst. nothing like looking into the eyes of your belayer while you wait for the rope to come tight! i righted myself and tended to my bleeding elbow and knee once i was lowered to the ground.
harness held just fine.
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scottquig
Jan 23, 2006, 1:54 PM
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Also if you're super-concerned or wearing a pack (alpine climbing, maybe), you can buy a body harness or fashion a chest harness from a double sling and a carabiner. That will sure help keep you upright!
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arrow
Jan 23, 2006, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: if you pull down on your harness and you cant get it over your hips does that mean it will hold if you take a lead fall upside down.
To answer your question YES This is an important pre climb check ESPECIALLY for kids.
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healyje
Jan 26, 2006, 9:54 PM
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I've got an old back injury and if I have to hang in a harness any length of time at all I turn up side down and usually lower off roofs and hangs that way - quite comfy all in all...
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angry
Jan 26, 2006, 10:40 PM
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Remember guys, it's possible to actually fall head first.
I can think of 3 occasions that I bombed out of a crack head first.
1. October Light, it's weird, it's flared, and it's wide. I was attempting a heel toe and stack technique when I should have just chicken winged and struggled. I rocketed out of that thing head first. It was a clean fall. When the rope pulled tight I flipped back upright and had no issues.
2. Squat, 6" wide roofcrack. Total abdominal failure and I oozed out head first. Again the fall was clean and I flipped upright as soon as I wieghted the rope.
3. King Kat, Instead of the popular layback on the roof flake, I decided to throw my foot over my head and do a sit-up. It didn't work. Same result as the other two falls.
It's not what direction you fall but what you fall into. If you can totally avoid coming out of things head first, you're trying the wrong routes, pussy.
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claramie
Jan 26, 2006, 10:43 PM
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In reply to: if you're properly fitted, you shouldn't flip over if hanging in a harness.
Not to overanalyze but I assume that the OP is talking about the fall tossing him/her upside down, not just weighting the harness.
CL
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dirtineye
Jan 26, 2006, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: if you pull down on your harness and you cant get it over your hips does that mean it will hold if you take a lead fall upside down. i ask because i have trouble getting my harness as tight as it will go around my waist because it needs doubling back and if it was tight i couldn't double it back. im not doing lead climbing right now but i certainly plan on learning before the 5 years in which i am suppose to use my harness before i get a new one is up and i would rather not drop the money on a new harness if this one will hold. peace
Well since nobody actually answered the hidden question, HERE's how you tighten a harness that doubles back, if you want it so tight you know you'll never fall out of it:
Instead of pulling the tail pass (The one on top of the first pass. The one can comes back though.) all the way down tight, leave slack in that pass, the one on top in the buckle, and work some more belt though the buckle in under the top pass. Then when you are happy with the tightness, work that inner slack into the outer pass, and pull it all though.
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lil_monkey
Jan 26, 2006, 11:10 PM
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kricir
Jan 26, 2006, 11:43 PM
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Hang about 4 ft of the ground, and flip over, you will have your answer.
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dirtineye
Jan 27, 2006, 11:15 PM
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You're welcome lil-monkey.
It's good to know that you won't fall out of your hanress.
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healyje
Jan 28, 2006, 6:02 AM
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Now if you cross your legs like you are sitting on the floor it's quite comfortable. I've also taken several head first lead falls and they've also been just as comfortable.
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