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collegekid
Jan 24, 2006, 6:11 AM
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Based on the seeming increase in accidents at Jtree lately, and the fact that I had an accident there just 4 months ago, brings me to write this post (rant):
First, let's establish that climbing is a dangerous sport. Everyone knows that...it's obvious that being high off the ground brings the risk of falling. Any non-climber could tell you that, even a child could tell you it's dangerous to be high from the ground.
But I think that when a person is introduced to climbing by people who are experienced, his/her experienced friends may not convey how terribly dangerous climbing really is. Experienced climbers make it seem so effortless, and seem so fearless, it gives one a false impression that what we're doing is safe.
Climbing is never safe. According to OSHA, even a 4 foot fall can be fatal...anytime you are off the ground on a climb, be it 40 feet above the last placement or reaching for the first bolt on a sport route, your life is in danger. It doesn't take much of an impact to cause brain damage.
I think that people REALLY need to understand the risks that are involved in climbing. I don't think that I have ever really allowed this to sink in until my accident this summer, and I hope that it doesn't take an accident to wake others up to the fact that YOUR LIFE IS TRULY IN DANGER, EVERY TIME, AND ANY TIME YOU CLIMB.
It's very easy to become complacent, especially after a few years under the belt with no serious accidents. Competitiveness to push one's limits can also cloud your vision, so that you forget about the danger aspect of climbing.
All it takes is one slip up, one poorly placed cam, one unbuckled harness, one unlocked biner, one mis-heard belay command, one run-out, to end it all.
If you're lucky like me, that mistake will only cost you a month off of climbing and a few hundred bucks in hospital bills. We all know the cost if you're unlucky.
Obviously, climbing is a fun, social sport...but maybe it shouldn't be. Climbing is life and death. Would you want a heart surgeon to be chatting with his buddies or drinking a beer while he's operating on you? Then why do we accept the same behaviors in climbing?
People on this site may knock bouldering for being a sport for pussies, but maybe I am a pussy. I'm a pussy for thinking that my time off from work should be spent on a relaxing day at the boulders, or at the gym boulder area, instead of on a literally life-and-death trip to go route climbing.
If you say that route climbing is not life-and-death, and that I'm overreacting, well it is life and death and you're not taking it seriously enough. There are some climbers out there, that are so sick strong and good at what they do, it would take a hurricane to knock them off of a route. These people will most likely not fall, simply because they're so damn good. However, most people are not this good, and are vulnerable to stupidity and mistakes with gear. If you think you're not vulnerable, maybe you should look through some of the accident reports on this forum...a large number of accidents happen to people that are highly experienced.
I had 4 years of experience prior to my accident. Had I taken this sport more seriously, the accident probably would not have happened. If before stepping back to be lowered 15 feet to the base of the climb, I had thought to myself "gee, what if I'm not on belay, even though I thought I heard him say I was?", I would not have fallen onto my back and been airlifted out of Jtree to spend a night in the hospital, strapped to a backboard and neckbrace for 8 hrs, terrified that I might have done some permanent damage to my back (luckily I didn't).
The cause of all the "gym climber noobs" getting hurt is not lack of experience (though experience couldn't hurt), it's lack of respect for how truly serious this sport is. The only way to change this is for people to change their attitudes--stop thinking of climbing as "just another sport" or a fun weekend activity.
(end rant)
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squierbypetzl
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Jan 24, 2006, 6:52 AM
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Not meant as a flame:
In reply to: ...anytime you are off the ground on a climb, be it 40 feet above the last placement or reaching for the first bolt on a sport route, your life is in danger.
Interesting. So, tell me, have you ever actually been 40 ft above your last placement? (no duh itīs dangerous, that wasnīt my question)
In reply to: I think that people REALLY need to understand the risks that are involved in climbing. I don't think that I have ever really allowed this to sink in until my accident this summer, and I hope that it doesn't take an accident to wake others up to the fact that YOUR LIFE IS TRULY IN DANGER, EVERY TIME, AND ANY TIME YOU CLIMB.
If it hasnīt sunk in with them by now, you or me or any other stranger posting about it on the internet wonīt help īem out much. Itīs one of the things you need to feel close to home to truly understand.
In reply to: All it takes is one slip up, one poorly placed cam, one unbuckled harness, one unlocked biner, one mis-heard belay command, one run-out, to end it all.
All it takes is for 1 guy at a bar 1 night to have 1 beer too many and doze off at the wheel for 1 second to end it all for a complete stranger, but I donīt spend all my time obsessing about that either.
In reply to: Obviously, climbing is a fun, social sport...but maybe it shouldn't be.
Then stick to solo climbing, but wait, thatīs even more dangerous than having buddies nearby. And why the fuck would anyone climb if it wasnīt somehow fun for them?
In reply to: Climbing is life and death.
Yeah, sure, but i choose to put greater emphasis on life.
In reply to: People on this site may knock bouldering for being a sport for sissies, but maybe I am a sissy. I'm a sissy for thinking that my time off from work should be spent on a relaxing day at the boulders, or at the gym boulder area, instead of on a literally life-and-death trip to go route climbing.
Bouldering isnīt a sport. Rock climbing is a sport, bouldering is a type of rockclimbing.
And now I quote:
"Any non-climber could tell you that, even a child could tell you it's dangerous to be high from the ground."
--and--
"According to OSHA, even a 4 foot fall can be fatal".
So what was your point again?
In reply to: If you say that route climbing is not life-and-death, and that I'm overreacting, well it is life and death and you're not taking it seriously enough. There are some climbers out there, that are so sick strong and good at what they do, it would take a hurricane to knock them off of a route. These people will most likely not fall, simply because they're so damn good. However, most people are not this good, and are vulnerable to stupidity and mistakes with gear. If you think you're not vulnerable, maybe you should look through some of the accident reports on this forum...a large number of accidents happen to people that are highly experienced.
A lot of things are "life and death"; surfing, skiing, skydiving, driving, showering, sleeping in a bunk bed.... And everyone can be vulnerable to stupidity.
nothing to say about your accident except itīs good youīre ok
....
:D :D :D
All your recent posts lead me to believe that you really need to mellow out. Stress kills ya know.
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locker
Jan 24, 2006, 7:09 AM
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very simliat happened to me very recently...only on a TR!!!
"If before stepping back to be lowered 15 feet to the base of the climb, I had thought to myself "gee, what if I'm not on belay, even though I thought I heard him say I was?"... I am glad you are ok dude or dudette!!! I too am fine... But I sure was pissed that my belayer did not have me or arrest my fall...
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hosh
Jan 24, 2006, 8:04 AM
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last fall I took was maybe 20 feet (?) on to a 1.5 tri-cam placed in a pretty marginal pocket. Below that was a peice of mental pro (a grey alien that probablly wouldn't have held) then an orange TCU that I don't know if I would have trusted with body weight. Below that was a #1 camalot that would have held a truck. had the tri-cam blown and the zipper effect taken place, the 20 footer would have been more like 50 or 60 feet. Luckily, the tri-cam held. But more importantly, my belayer held...
Maybe belayers are like wine, the older they get (assuming age=experience=safety), the better!
hosh.
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the_mitt
Jan 24, 2006, 10:13 AM
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[quote:425a6ff46b="collegekid"]
Climbing is never safe. According to OSHA, even a 4 foot fall can be fatal...anytime you are off the ground on a climb, be it 40 feet above the last placement or reaching for the first bolt on a sport route, your life is in danger. It doesn't take much of an impact to cause brain damage.
People on this site may knock bouldering for being a sport for sissies, but maybe I am a sissy. I'm a sissy for thinking that my time off from work should be spent on a relaxing day at the boulders, or at the gym boulder area, instead of on a literally life-and-death trip to go route climbing.
(end rant)[/quote:425a6ff46b]
CLIMBING is as safe as you make it, wanna make it safe empower yourself with knowledge, and learn from someone who has experience, plus be vigilant about your safety.
I have seen more injuries in bouldering then any other facet to this sport, and I have seen more people risking their lives bouldering highballs (but once again with make it as safe as you want)
Maybe its time for you to accept responsibility for your actions and admit that you are the cause of your accident and not climbing.
/end rant
Mitt
.02 cents
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jammer
Jan 24, 2006, 2:10 PM
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Sorry to hear about your accident, but I'm even more sorry to hear about the negative attitude you developed from this experience. It sounds like you partner was drinking. Was the person drinking?? You also mentioned bouldering. Hell, that's where I get injured the most! You may not be at any high altitude, but when your back is facing the ground climbing overhanging boulder problems, you are more likely to get hurt in such a fall. I landed on the crash pad, but with enough force to break my ankle and have a pin put in. Yes, climbing is dangerous and should be taken seriously, as already mentioned over and over again on this site. Just don't hold on to your negative thoughts. Let them go and find a lesson in what had happened and put that in your little "bag of tricks." If you give up all other aspects of climbing but bouldering, then it is your loss. Please don't try and convince others to do the same. This is not the answer to your problem.
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collegekid
Jan 24, 2006, 9:28 PM
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Ok to clear some stuff up...
My belayer was setting up a top belay, and due to really bad acoustics, he thought I asked to be taken off belay. I thought he'd said I was on belay.
I'm not mad at him, just as I'm not mad that he helped prevent me from going into shock by talking to me and keeping tabs on me until the medics came.
I just think it's sad when really good people are killed in climbing accidents. Not to sound conceited, but it would have been a terrible waste of my intellectual talents and youth to have died when I was 22, just so that I could "live life to the fullest" while out on a weekend climbing trip.
The purpose of my rant was that people need to take climbing more seriously, kinda like how people should take driving more seriously. I used to drive like a maniac, but have kinda grown out of it, realizing that the thrill of driving fast isn't worth the chance of causing a serious accident.
I'm not condoning sitting on a couch all your life, and watching tv like the majority of the population...I'm just saying, people should allow the reality of what they're doing to settle in, and take full responsibility for it. When you get killed in a climbing accident, your death impacts the lives of everyone around you. Pretending that climbing is just another weekend activity is denying the reality, that you could very easily die on that trip.
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nowinowski
Jan 24, 2006, 9:59 PM
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don't pee on my rainbows noobie control freak :D
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caughtinside
Jan 24, 2006, 10:11 PM
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You're a preachy little bastard.
Why don't you take care of yourself, and let everyone else do the same? Focus all that 'intellectual talent' on keeping you and your partners safe.
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brolloks
Jan 24, 2006, 10:17 PM
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I think I understand what you want to say, although the way you're saying it sounds a little heated.
Taking full responsibility is one of the main reasons I like climbing. It gives you the opportunity to take responsibility for that which you value TRULY - your life. It adds spice to "normal" life, and one's held directly responsible for decisions and actions taken (payment's collected in full, regardless of who you are....). I consider this a valuable lesson in life.
Glad you're OK.
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majid_sabet
Jan 24, 2006, 11:00 PM
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2 years later, this subject is continuing, UCSD PHD student dropped out of school and find himself on the Karakoram Highway looking for a place to climb.
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macherry
Jan 25, 2006, 2:23 AM
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stay at home and watch tv, but in the words of madonna,
"papa don't preach".
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himistu22
Jan 25, 2006, 3:28 AM
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Dude, some know what you are trying to say, but kind of the wrong site to do it at. Everyone here loves what we do. It makes us who we are. We are aware of it more than you give us credit for. A lot of us around here couldn't find any other reason to live if we weren't climbing... I thought of a few.... aaa... can't remember them now, thinking about climbing clouds my thoughts!!! :?
If you really feel that you have to bring a greater awarness of the danger, then talk to a climbing organization about putting some educational event for this. (honestly not being sarcastic)
Be cool.
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cracklover
Jan 25, 2006, 4:34 AM
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I understand how dangerous climbing is. I'm not a kid who feels invincible, and I don't lie myself. I take the risks seriously, and always have. I've known people who've died, and it's absolutely horrible. I also know that no matter how vigilant I am, I can make a mistake, and actually sometimes I can do everything right and still get the axe (though that's pretty unlikely). I do not want to die, or be seriously injured. I very much do not want this!
Nevertheless, I want to climb. I enjoy climbing. I take the risks that seem acceptable to me, and I have no trouble reconciling all these things with one another.
Just because you can't wrap your mind around something doesn't mean someone else can't. Know what I'm saying?
Best of luck, and enjoy bouldering, if that's your thing!
GO
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saxfiend
Jan 25, 2006, 4:41 AM
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In reply to: All it takes is one slip up, one poorly placed cam, one unbuckled harness, one unlocked biner, one mis-heard belay command, one run-out, to end it all.
Do you routinely run red lights when you drive? Probably not. You know without having to consciously think about it that if you did, you'd get creamed. You've internalized the self-command "stop when the light's red."
Now try internalizing the sequence when you're ready to get lowered. I'm sure you called out "on belay?" before you leaned back. What was your partner's response? Who misheard who?
Next time, weight the rope before letting go of the rock and leaning back. If you don't feel tension in the rope, don't lean back!
I agree with the other poster who said climbing is as safe as you make it. As you said, one fuck-up can kill you -- so you take extra care, EVERY TIME, to do every detail right and not fuck up. Most climbers do take this extra care, otherwise we'd be reading about a lot more injuries and deaths.
Good luck!
JL
PS -- I consider bouldering more potentially dangerous than roped climbing, and driving more dangerous than either of those!
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climbingaggie03
Jan 25, 2006, 6:36 AM
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saxfiend wroteIn reply to: PS -- I consider bouldering more potentially dangerous than roped climbing, and driving more dangerous than either of those!
Ditto
Statistically, your much more likely to get hurt in the car on the way to the crag than while you're there, just because you've become oblivious to the risk doesn't mean it's disappeared, nor does it mean it will definitely bite you. Nothing is certain, so climb hard while you can.
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daithi
Jan 25, 2006, 10:40 AM
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In reply to: ...or reaching for the first bolt on a sport route, your life is in danger.
Stickclip that bad boy! :D
In reply to: I'm a sissy for thinking that my time off from work should be spent on a relaxing day at the boulders, or at the gym boulder area, instead of on a literally life-and-death trip to go route climbing.
But yet route climbing can also be done safely. Almost every activity we do can be thought of life-and-death. What if you fall awkwardly from your boulder and your spotter is not paying attention and you break your neck? The permutations for injury and death are infinite! Fundamentally I can't see how route climbing is anymore life and death.
In reply to: There are some climbers out there, that are so sick strong and good at what they do, it would take a hurricane to knock them off of a route. These people will most likely not fall, simply because they're so damn good.
You shouldn't necessarily equate falling with danger. Also strong climbers fall all the time. Any half decent sports climbers is going to spend lots of time lobbing off routes and the people I know that climb trad at a decent level are comfortable taking falls on gear and routinely do.
BTW I am sorry to hear about your accident. I do believe your conclusions from it though are a result of flawed logic.
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trenchdigger
Jan 25, 2006, 5:56 PM
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Whoa Jon. Chill dude.
Most of your conclusions are sound, but I must say I agree with daithi:
In reply to: I do believe your conclusions from it though are a result of flawed logic.
Most of us here understand very well the seriousness and risk involved in climbing. We don't see it as just another weekend sport. By realizing those risks, we take measures to mitigate them to a level acceptable to each of us individually.
Yes, there are some people that fail to respect climbing. Sometimes because they were never taught, but in many cases, they simply fail to slow down, focus, and consider the entirety of the situation. I think you were one of those people before this accident.
Jon, I've climbed with your for a few years now - mostly bouldering, and occasionally tieing in on a rope. When I heard about your near miss out climbing with Josh, and how lightly you took it, I worried about the way you acted before thinking sometimes.
Now you seem to have the same false sense of security with bouldering that you used to with roped climbing. Safer? Maybe, but only if you mitigate the risks. OSHA says you can die from a 4 foot fall, but I bet you're not going to stay below that level. You fall in JTree was only 15'. That's not even into "highball" bouldering range for most.
There's a certain mindset you need to climb safely - especially on a rope. You now have a healthy respect for the risk involved, but you still lack the ability to turn everything down a notch. Slow it down. Think. Focus. Check and be sure of everything. Don't assume anything. Know exactly what's keeping you from death at all times. Climbing isn't just about the climbing, it's about this process. And that's a big part of why we enjoy it.
If you want to preach, preach about how to climb safely and what you learned from your mistakes. Don't preach that "climbing is dangerous." We know damn well it's dangerous. Preach about how not to make a huge mistake that could kill you. Your accident was not just a one in a million fluke that could happen to anyone. You made a huge and dangerous assumption in thinking you were on belay without definitive confirmation.
Your belayer never had you on belay, never indicated that you were on belay, and hadn't even finished assembling the anchor. Soon after he reached the top of the climb and was taken off belay, you attempted to communicate (unsuccessfully) that you wanted to be lowered to the bottom of the rock below the ledge you were on. When he pulled up most of the slack in the rope, you assumed you were on belay. I heard you call out "on belay" one time which garnered no response - and I knew you heard no response because you jokingly asked if he was still up there. 30 sec or so later, your belayer heard your commands of "slack" and "take" from you thinking you just needed rope to move around at the base of the climb, get your shoes on, whatever. Then the rope ripped out of his hand...
None of us on the ground thought you were on belay or thought you believed you were on belay. I was a bit confused by your "take" and "slack" commands, but didn't think you would weight the rope without confirmation that you were on belay.
We're all glad you're alright and back out climbing again. Turn it down a notch and get more from this experience than just learning that climbing is dangerous.
~Adam~
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clayman
Jan 25, 2006, 6:08 PM
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I read somewhere (can't remember where though) that the percentage of accidents by "inexperienced" climbers and the percentage of accidents by "experienced" climbers was not that different. Anybody else heard this?
cl
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trenchdigger
Jan 25, 2006, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: I read somewhere (can't remember where though) that the percentage of accidents by "inexperienced" climbers and the percentage of accidents by "experienced" climbers was not that different. Anybody else heard this? cl
That begs the question...
What is an "experienced" climber?
I have heard a theory (statistic?) that most accidents happen to climbers with 1-3 years of experience. Those with less experience tend not to push themselves and are much more cautious, and those with more than 3 years of experience tend to know how to minimize risk and keep themselves out of trouble. Climbers with 1-3 years of experience know plenty to make themselves dangerous, but don't know as well how to stay out of trouble (though many think they do). Makes sense, though I've never seen any hard numbers on it.
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cosmiccragsman
Jan 25, 2006, 6:51 PM
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HOSH WROTE
In reply to: last fall I took was maybe 20 feet (?)
It was more like 14, 15 feet.
Hosh wrote,
In reply to: Maybe belayers are like wine, the older they get (assuming age=experience=safety), the better!
What kind of wine, Hosh? Cabernet or Merlot? :oops:
Awesome lead On Illusion Dweller Hosh!
Cosmiccragsman
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clayman
Jan 25, 2006, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I read somewhere (can't remember where though) that the percentage of accidents by "inexperienced" climbers and the percentage of accidents by "experienced" climbers was not that different. Anybody else heard this? cl That begs the question... What is an "experienced" climber? I have heard a theory (statistic?) that most accidents happen to climbers with 1-3 years of experience. Those with less experience tend not to push themselves and are much more cautious, and those with more than 3 years of experience tend to know how to minimize risk and keep themselves out of trouble. Climbers with 1-3 years of experience know plenty to make themselves dangerous, but don't know as well how to stay out of trouble (though many think they do). Makes sense, though I've never seen any hard numbers on it.
I think this is a very general concept in life. It's the ones in between that think they got it all figured out. I see this all time in academia. The junior and senior undergrads spout off all the time, with authority, about their majors, but the 3rd-4th year grad students are quite humble and reticent about claiming any knowledge.
cl
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cintune
Jan 25, 2006, 7:12 PM
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"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end."
E. Whymper, 1860
Yup yup yup.
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jsh
Jan 25, 2006, 7:33 PM
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It takes no experience at all, to know that the only person responsible for keeping you safe is YOU.
Your first line of defense is always self-reliance. That's what underlies "the leader must not fall" ... but if you don't understand that, no amount of experience or lectures or partners or gear manufacturers or books will teach you.
Your post was frankly shocking in its utter dearth of personal responsibility. Your friend's post was even more revealing of that aspect.
I can think of a dozen things that would have prevented your accident, but that's not the point. The point is that YOU didn't think. Good luck graduating.
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majid_sabet
Jan 25, 2006, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: I can think of a dozen things that would have prevented your accident, but that's not the point. The point is that YOU didn't think. Good luck graduating.
I can provide you with 100 different solid facts that could prove which, no matter what you do, accidents will happen,They are ment to happen on that time and place, people will get hurt and there is nothing you can do to stop those events from happening.
Those who walk away from these incidents are choosen to walk away .
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