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majid_sabet
Jan 29, 2006, 4:26 AM
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abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1544291
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MOAB, Utah, Jan. 28, 2006 — In this rugged terrain that stretches over 3,600 square miles and includes two national parks and the Colorado River, search and rescue missions can be dangerous and expensive.
"In about a six or seven days' time, we've spent over $23,000," Grand County Sheriff Jim Nyland said recently.
Bill Me Later
But with more than a million visitors a year, this county of 8,500 residents can no longer afford to foot the bill.
"A lot of people expect search and rescue to be free," said rescuer Bego Gerhart. "But in rural counties all over the West, how do you afford to be what you need to be with a small tax base?"
So now, Grand County charges those who become stranded and lost.
Mark Mechau had to pay $650 to be rescued after becoming lost one night in his Jeep. He complained that too many people were sent out to find him.
"I'm a little upset about it," he said. "The bill was exorbitant, and I really didn't feel that it was equal to the task."
Search and rescue commander Rex Tanner defends his decision to send five rescuers.
"If we had not been successful in rescuing him, somebody in the family probably would have questioned or, you know, responded with the fact that you didn't send enough people," Tanner said.
How do the costs break down? It costs $275 to send a rescue team out the door, $75 a day for an all-terrain vehicle, $350 for a boat, and $10,000 for a helicopter.
There is some concern that charging for search and rescue could backfire — that some people, in order to save money, could continue wandering in the wilderness instead of calling for help.
As a result, tour operators are now offering search and rescue insurance.
"For $15, I mean, it's a lifesaver," said Jason Taylor of the Moab Adventure Center. "Or, it could be a lifesaver."
'Worth Every Penny'
It could have helped a recent group of wayward mountain bikers, one of whom said they "got caught up there in the heat."
"Their billing will come to a total of about $575," Nyland said.
It's a bill one of the mountain bikers said they would gladly pay.
"And it's worth every penny," the mountain biker said. "These guys earned every bit of it."
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anykineclimb
Jan 29, 2006, 5:20 AM
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I think its a good idea. although it can be prone to abuse.
Colorado has the rescue insurance cards also and I think its $15 too.
a VERY inexpensive investment when most people can spend that much at a meal.
I think in National Parks, if its determined that the rescuee was at fault (not prepared, doing something foolish, etc. ) then they can be billed.
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mistymountainhop
Jan 29, 2006, 6:16 AM
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I paid .50 cents insurance just in case my head phones broke. They got old and i broke them myself so i could get new ones!! F- you Best Buy!!
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schmidty06
Jan 29, 2006, 6:54 AM
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I feel that if you get yourself lost somewhere where rescuers are going to need to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to find your ass, you should pay up. Especially if it's ME that gets called up at 2 in the morning to go out and find you.
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montentcontent
Jan 29, 2006, 8:19 AM
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In reply to: I paid .50 cents insurance just in case my head phones broke. They got old and i broke them myself so i could get new ones!! F- you Best Buy!!
So, by this logic, $15 would be an inexpensive investment for a $10,000 helicopter ride. Just kidding, Best Buy sucks.
When I go on a trip (backpacking, biking, climbing, whatever), I pretty much accept that I am responsible for what happens to me. If I get in over my head and somebody saves my ass, I don't think I'd question the price they put on it.
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horseonwheels
Jan 29, 2006, 8:21 AM
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There are so many things that the people who work in search and rescue do. From helping climbers, lost hikers, natural disaster search and rescue, plane crashes, weather issues, etc., etc.
To create a situation where the person who needs assistance might neglect their safety for a lack of money would be terrible. Nobody chooses to need help, there is already plenty of disincentive built into it. Also, this pay for rescue system would likely lead to lawsuits and appeals concerning what was necessary for the rescue and how "at fault" the rescuee was. It just seems to introduce a lot of problems into something that should be simple.
I think the real solution is to have state-wide search and rescue organizations with local branches in each county or region. That is, each county would not have their own allocation for search and rescue. That way everyone is concerned about the funding, and tax payers in lower risk areas contribute to the funding for counties like Grand County. Places like Moab, Yosemite, and RMNP have very high search and rescue budgets per capita, despite having many of the rescued coming from other counties.
There should also be a limit on how many free rescues a person is entitled to; say 1 or 2 before they have to contribute to rescue costs. This way, those people that put themselves in dangerous situations are penalized for their reckless behavior and ill-preparedness. If a person is getting rescued more than 2 times in their life, they are likely going into places they knew they didn't have the experience to be in.
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gyngve
Jan 29, 2006, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: I feel that if you get yourself lost somewhere where rescuers are going to need to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to find your ass, you should pay up. Especially if it's ME that gets called up at 2 in the morning to go out and find you.
Would you rather rescue a living person now or haul out a dead body tomorrow? I don't want someone weighing, "Is my life worth $10000?" and making the wrong decision.
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gyngve
Jan 29, 2006, 8:56 PM
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In reply to: I think the real solution is to have state-wide search and rescue organizations with local branches in each county or region. That is, each county would not have their own allocation for search and rescue. That way everyone is concerned about the funding, and tax payers in lower risk areas contribute to the funding for counties like Grand County. Places like Moab, Yosemite, and RMNP have very high search and rescue budgets per capita, despite having many of the rescued coming from other counties.
That's the way it is in WA, and it seems to work fine. Counties even ask other counties' units for help. What gives in CO and UT?
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gyngve
Jan 29, 2006, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: I think in National Parks, if its determined that the rescuee was at fault (not prepared, doing something foolish, etc. ) then they can be billed.
As I understand it, this would be only if proven guilty of reckless endangerment or something similar. An example was a guy on Rainier soloing without a permit who repeatedly refused advice to turn around. He called for a rescue up top and was being quite the jerk.
The fact is that all of us are going to have something bad happen to us at some point, no matter how prepared we are, unless we stay home on the couch. Rockfall. Storm. Twist an ankle. Accidentally drop or forget a critical piece of gear. Have a sudden illness in the backcountry. Maybe we'll be able to deal with it and self-rescue. Maybe not.
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gyngve
Jan 29, 2006, 9:16 PM
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In reply to: I feel that if you get yourself lost somewhere where rescuers are going to need to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to find your ass, you should pay up. Especially if it's ME that gets called up at 2 in the morning to go out and find you.
And I suppose you would charge Alzheimers/dementia patients every time they wander out and they need to send up the helicopter with the electronic locator receivers?
And when some poor sap decides to blow his head off in the woods or jump off a cliff, you would charge the family for the cost of the recovery?
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majid_sabet
Jan 29, 2006, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I feel that if you get yourself lost somewhere where rescuers are going to need to spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to find your ass, you should pay up. Especially if it's ME that gets called up at 2 in the morning to go out and find you. And I suppose you would charge Alzheimers/dementia patients every time they wander out and they need to send up the helicopter with the electronic locator receivers? And when some poor sap decides to blow his head off in the woods or jump off a cliff, you would charge the family for the cost of the recovery?
ok I agree with you , but here what you are going to hear from them.
1- who the hell told you to rescue me
2- I was not happy with your SAR service and I want to get an attorney and sue you (There has been only one successful case in U.S. Park history, and that was in ALASKA, long story short, guy lost few fingers).
3- I did not cause it
4-You had no sign in this park to warn me about these accidents (recent Yosemite lawsuit, which did not go any where in court.
5- you made it worse, now I walk with 1/2 foot and crocket (many cases)
6- You SAR operation was not as good as you claim therefore no pay
7- I agree, and it was my fault, but come and get your cash cause I got none to pay you.
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erclimb
Jan 29, 2006, 9:39 PM
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locals can correct me if i'm wrong, but i think wyoming does a thorough investigation and if the rescuee is at fault then the rescuee has to pay...for example, if a hiker did not have the proper clothing and went hypo...or if a climber was free soloing and fell
sounds like a reasonable deal to me; we have to remember that every rescue effort endangers the lives of every rescuer; and there should be a penalty for being stupid
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hey_ben
Jan 29, 2006, 9:44 PM
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Here in Colorado I buy a fishing license each year, and it covers any SAR efforts through the insurance. This way they can apply for reimbursement straight to the state. Pretty sweet deal, although I hope never to have a need for it.
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gyngve
Jan 29, 2006, 9:53 PM
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In reply to: sounds like a reasonable deal to me; we have to remember that every rescue effort endangers the lives of every rescuer; and there should be a penalty for being stupid
Many times the only difference between a climb being called heroic or an accident being called stupid is nothing more than bum luck.
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gyngve
Jan 29, 2006, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: I think its a good idea. although it can be prone to abuse. Colorado has the rescue insurance cards also and I think its $15 too. a VERY inexpensive investment when most people can spend that much at a meal.
Great, that $15 will go just fine with my:
NW Forest Pass
Natl Park Pass
Adams/St Helens Volcano Pass
Ranier Climbing Pass
Fish&Wildlife Parking Pass
SnoPark Pass
State Park Pass
...
:roll:
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docontherock
Jan 29, 2006, 10:23 PM
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Frequently, those needing to be rescued have entered the wilderness unprepared, under-trained, and unequipped. Expecting other people to potentially risk their lives to save you when you have made poor decisions is selfish. If, despite proper training, preparation, etc. something bad happens, that is a different situation. Most of the stories I hear about people needing to be rescued just make me shake my head at their stupidity.
The quickest way for us to lose our right to enter the wilderness is to put the responsibility for our safety in the hands of the government. The no-load limousine riding crowd in DC would just as soon close the wilderness areas as shell out cash for rescues.
Bottom line is, if you are going to enter the wilderness you need to be prepared to effect an exit on your own.
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modman
Jan 29, 2006, 10:33 PM
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The SAR group is allowed to charge based on the Sherrif's assesment as to whether or not you were an idiot. A few years back some guy got dehydrated on the Maroon Bells and the had to rescue him with a horse. Hew spent a few days in the hospital and then after he got out he went back up and fell off the other Maroon Bell. So now they had to do a two day body recovery. In that case the sheriff did demand and receive a portion of his estate.
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scrappydoo
Jan 29, 2006, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: I think its a good idea. although it can be prone to abuse. Colorado has the rescue insurance cards also and I think its $15 too. a VERY inexpensive investment when most people can spend that much at a meal. I think in National Parks, if its determined that the rescuee was at fault (not prepared, doing something foolish, etc. ) then they can be billed.
Colorado folks: check out the CORSAR card at http://www.dola.state.co.us/lgs/fa/sar/SARcard.htm
This is not, as most think it is, "rescue insurance". What it does do is allow the agencies involved in your rescue to petition the state for reimbursement of costs (related to your rescue) from the state's Search and Rescue Fund.
Most non-Nat'l Park mountain rescue groups are members (at some level) of the Mountain Rescue Association (MRA: http://mra.org/), which means that they don't charge for rescue. However, in most states, SAR is the responsibility of the county Sheriff, who usually delegates that to a MRA-credentialed volunteer group-- the Sheriff may still choose to charge a rescuee. The reasons for this are many, like making an example if the victim/s was/were egregiously negligent, but more often, it would be (like the original post) because the rescue-related costs broke the Sheriff's budget (Sheriff authorizes the use of and pays for expensive resources like helicopters, which cost ~$3,000/hr).
It is very rare for a rescuee to be charged for their rescue. However, if a rescue is needed, it usually requires an ambulance or flight for life ride, which is a different, for-profit, agency and you will be charged.
The men and women of volunteer MRA search and rescue groups dedicate a huge amount of personal time, effort and money to provide these services free of charge. These organizations often operate on the most shoe-string of budgets. It would be a mistake to think that charging for a rescue is a money-grabbing move-- there is no money in rescue and no paid positions (except at a few National Parks).
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gyngve
Jan 30, 2006, 12:57 AM
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In reply to: Frequently, those needing to be rescued have entered the wilderness unprepared, under-trained, and unequipped. Expecting other people to potentially risk their lives to save you when you have made poor decisions is selfish. If, despite proper training, preparation, etc. something bad happens, that is a different situation. Most of the stories I hear about people needing to be rescued just make me shake my head at their stupidity.
I hear this attitude a lot.
Some counterpoints:
If Hiker Bob got stuck after dark on a trail and called 911, you're not risking your life to hike up to him with a headlamp (and yes, that scenario happens quite often). Hiker Bob shouldn't be charged. Hiker Bob should be educated in the 10 essentials. He should be encouraged to tell his friends about mountain safety education and be encouraged to consider donating to mountain rescue associations.
A lot of people say, "I'm experienced. I'm not stupid. It won't happen to me." You're just fooling yourself.
Everyone makes poor decisions every time they go in the mountains. Heck, every time they drive their car. Most of the time the poor decisions don't accumulate enough to climax in a catastrophe. The more knowledgable and experienced you are, the more you push yourself, and the closer to the edge you stand. Beginners stand further from the edge. Both beginners and experts get into trouble.
Mountain rescue was founded on the notion that climbers rescue fellow climbers, and a climber might be the one doing the rescuing or the one getting rescued. This fellowship is still thriving today, and I would like to see it continue to flourish.
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majid_sabet
Jan 30, 2006, 1:54 AM
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I hear this attitude a lot.
Some counterpoints:
If Hiker Bob got stuck after dark on a trail and called 911, you're not risking your life to hike up to him with a headlamp (and yes, that scenario happens quite often). Hiker Bob shouldn't be charged. Hiker Bob should be educated in the 10 essentials. He should be encouraged to tell his friends about mountain safety education and be encouraged to consider donating to mountain rescue associations.
Here is a bigger problem and it is getting bigger
HIKER BOB goes out with his new Personal locating beacon PLB and turns it on.
not too long ago a hiker Bob alike turned his PLB on twice, first time was free but second time SAR charge Hiker Bob for 2 SAR each near $5000 and they Bob, next time is going to stay in downtown jail.
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kubi
Jan 30, 2006, 3:43 AM
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I think what a lot of people are forgetting is a town of 8,500 is supporting a rescue service that can exceed $500,000/year. In my mind, that's completely unreasonable and something needs to be done. Personally, I think backcounry permits would be a fine solution. State or federal assistance would also be cool...but something needs to be done to lift some of the rescue burden off of such a small town.
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bryanboonern
Jan 30, 2006, 3:53 AM
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I had to be air lifted out of red rock in '04 and I was charged. I can't remember how much, but my health insurance paid 100% of it.
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bryanboonern
Jan 30, 2006, 3:56 AM
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I had to be air lifted out of Red Rock in '04 and was billed. I can't remember how much, but my health insurance paid 100% of it.
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docontherock
Jan 30, 2006, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: Mountain rescue was founded on the notion that climbers rescue fellow climbers, and a climber might be the one doing the rescuing or the one getting rescued. This fellowship is still thriving today, and I would like to see it continue to flourish
I couldn't agree more. The issue at hand, however, is who should foot the bill in the case of expensive rescues. If all we were talking about is the guy on the trail without a headlamp, we probably wouldn't have a problem. But the cost of EMS, helicopters, NON-volunteer rescuers/search parties, etc. runs up a hefty tab. The concept of rescue insurance seems a good one as long as it is not required AND as long as the general public is well aware that choosing not to purchase it may result in a hefty bill in the event of a rescue.
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gyngve
Jan 30, 2006, 6:04 PM
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I couldn't agree more. The issue at hand, however, is who should foot the bill in the case of expensive rescues. If all we were talking about is the guy on the trail without a headlamp, we probably wouldn't have a problem. But the cost of EMS, helicopters, NON-volunteer rescuers/search parties, etc. runs up a hefty tab. The concept of rescue insurance seems a good one as long as it is not required AND as long as the general public is well aware that choosing not to purchase it may result in a hefty bill in the event of a rescue.
My opinion is any additional costs should be covered by the government, spreading the burden to state or federal if necessary.
First of all, as I understand it, the Coast Guard does not charge for legitimate rescues, no matter how stupid the rescued are. Though they will charge for a hoax.
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opr/nojoke.htm
The vast majority of all SAR missions involve hikers, hunters, and fishermen. A search is the most taxing manpower-wise, as you need as many people as possible to explore a large search area. Helicopters may be used for aerial search or ferrying search teams. Despite the sensationalizing on the news, very few missions involve plucking climbers dangling off a cliff.
Private helicopters such as Lifelink are covered by health insurance. Spread out our army less and bring them back from Iraq so the military helis can be used for civilian support free of charge (the MAST program -- they'd need to rescue bags of rocks for mandatory training anyway).
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